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Featured Corporate Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Dec 11, 2023.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Here is an interesting article.
     

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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Election is a matter of individuals act of faith.

    Matthew 22:14, ". . . For many are called, but few are | elect. |

    2 Peter 1:4-10, ". . . giving all diligence, add to your faith . . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ."
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. But at the same time it is also not (see the article in my last post).

    Sometimes Scripture deals with individuals, but sometimes it deals with God electing a people or group. Sometimes Scripture assured us of our individual election. Sometimes Scripture tells us to be sure we belong to the Elect group.

    I think individual vs corporate election as an either/or argument focuses on one truth at the expense of another.
     
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree.....depending on what we mean (I agree with you in the passages you mention).

    Scripture speaks of people as God's chosen people. This is corporate election.

    When the Bible tells to test ourselves to see if we are numbered among the elect, the word "elect" is corporate (a people chosen by God).

    But in terms of God choosing to save, I think it fair to say God did not choose to save a group of lost people.

    Part of the difficulty here is that Scripture never speaks of a lost individual as being individually elected to salvation.


    This goes back to what Scripture teaches, truths in Scripture, and what we infer of those truths.

    Scripture does not teach these doctrines of election. We work them out.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @JonC,

    Twice.

    Matthew 20:16, ". . . for many be called, but few | elect. | . . ."
    Matthew 22:14, ". . . For many are called, but few are | elect. | . . ."

    Only a few of the many are elect. More are lost than elect. Even though plural is used, the few versus the many involves individuals.
     
    #26 37818, Dec 20, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2023
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This parable does speak of an individual....but not the choosing of a lost person. It is also not individual election as opposed to corporate election.

    Why was that man not chosen? Was it based on the man....or was the man not clothed for the wedding?

    Why were some men allowed to enter but others, like this man, rejected?

    The man showed up for the wedding but was not dressed in wedding clothes.

    Those prepared for the wedding are welcomed in because they are prepared for the wedding.

    Corporate Election works this way. Those clothed in Christ are God's elect.


    And this is a parable of the kingdom of God....not election itself. Goes back to what the Bible teaches vs biblical truths vs what we infer.
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I rejected the Pelagianism of the Church of Christ's teaching over 20 years ago.
     
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  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I do not believe in corporate election, than is so impersonal... Now I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the works... Election has sub categories, look at the context!

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

    3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

    4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    No doubt... This is Jesus Christ!

    1Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


    Again it applies only to those who Peter is talking too

    Then there is us

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    The confusions starts when we think every word means the same thing... 37818 in post #26 thinks the few is an eternal text... Its a discipleship text... How does the few explain the numberless multitude in Heaven?... Revelation 7: 9-10... You may have lost the ones that were not of the few but the LORD didn't, they're in the multitude... Brother Glen:)

     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think in a way it is intentionally impersonal (the focus being on Christ rather than individuals).

    I agree with you, BTW, that the confusion sets in when we hold every word means the same thing.

    That's why I believe in corporate election and individual election (I believe one necessitates the other).
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace, Gal1
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep. That's what I mean when I say that corporate election cannot negate individual election.

    I have seen those who believe individual election only quote passages supporting individual election and those who believe corporate election only quote passages supporting corporate election.

    But when we put those passages together and examine Scripture as a whole it is easy to see that the Bible speaks of individuals being chosen for a purpose AND a people of God as "the elect".

    That said, Galatians is not stating that Paul was God's elect (in terms of salvation) before Paul was born. God is presented as much more than this (it is speaking of God's purpose and Paul's response).

    This is, again, the difference between what the Bible teaches (the verse is not actually teaching election), biblical truths (individual election is true), and what we infer in assembling those truths.
     
  13. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I think the danger with corporate election is it can lead to a theology of baptismal regeneration where every baby baptized into the faith is corporately a part of the New Covenant, not by personal faith, but by church fiat.

    Where the whole of individual election does make a corporate body it seems that claiming a corporate election may bring in extra-biblical notions that may be dangerous.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Interesting take.

    In practice this doesn't seem the case.

    Presbyterians are the ones who worked out individual election to its fullest and they observe infant baptism....corporate election is primarily seen among free-will Baptists and they absolutely reject infant Baptism.

    But I do see how there could be a connection (baptism into the community). It does seem that historical Calvinism would affirm corporate election if this were the only issue.

    But I think their view of atonement supports individual election more than their baptism supports corporate election.
     
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I have studied it, but it does not make sense to me. It seems like the same double speak many Calvinists use when saying they don't believe in double predestination.
     
  16. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Well, maybe it depends on which Calvinists you ask, but Calvin himself taught that God's election was arbitrary...

    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

    “… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)​

    Regardless, the point is well taken. There is indeed a third option...

    Well stated!

    A decent analogy I've heard many times likens it to a passenger aircraft where the owner of the plane has set the plane's destination (i.e. it's destiny) well in advance. If anyone gets on board, they share the plane's destiny, not because the owner had any idea which particular persons would get on board but simply by virtue of their having done so.

    There are many who teach it this way, however, the "The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" is a cliche that has arisen from a misreading of two passages in revelation.

    Revelation 3:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

    The "Book of Life" is the title of a book in God's possession. (See below for the other places it shows up in scripture.)
    "Of the Lamb Slain" is the subtitle, the Lamb slain of course being Christ crucified.
    Names are written in it, and have been written in it, "from the foundation of the world."

    Those whose names are NOT written in this book will worship the beast, and will marvel.

    You could, in fact, write that part of 13:8 in this way, and not change the meaning:

    "whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain"​

    You could also write that part of 17:8 in this way, and not change the meaning:

    "whose names are not written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life"​

    Christ, the Lamb, was not slain from the foundation of the world (as Revelation 17:8 should have made clear). He died once for all!

    Romans 6:8-11 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Hebrews 7:26-28 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

    Hebrews 9:11-15 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Hebrews 10: 8-14 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

    Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.​

    The book appears in Philippians 4:3 and Revelation 3:1-6 without its subtitle. (Passages not directly quoted here because of a limit on the size of the post.)

    Then of course, the two passages I quoted above, followed by...

    Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21: 22-27 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

    Note the passage in Revelation 21, where it refers to the book as "the Lamb's Book of Life."

    No, the Lamb was not slain, literally or figuratively, from the foundation of the world. He was slain around AD 30, hanged on a tree, was buried, and rose again on the third day.

    I agree! Excellent topic! In my view, it is the only doctrine on election that is in keeping with scripture, sound reason and the righteous character of God. The other two options and their variants are either unbiblical, irrational or destroy any meaning to the word "justice" when applied to God, or a combination of the three.
     
    #36 CJP69, Dec 21, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2023
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It does depend on what Calvinism we use - you are exactly correct.

    Historic Calvinism would reject Reformed Baptists. But what I was speaking of was merely the "five points". And these are just a response to the five articles.

    Terms like Calvinism, Reformed, and Protestant can cause people to talk past one another. But I mean the five points (only Calvinistic soteriology that has crossed out from Presbyterian theology into other denominations).
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    God doesn't know who will choose to hop aboard?

    Is this a variant of the typical Arminian take of God's 'foreknowledge'?

    Is this Pelagianism?
     
    #38 kyredneck, Dec 21, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2023
  19. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    This sounds to me like you just not wanting to wear the Calvinist label.
    Just what is it that you think is soteriologically different about what Calvin taught in "Institutes" vs. what the Reformed Baptists teach?

    I've been doing this a long long time and I've never encountered a single Calvinist who even tried to explain away what Calvin himself taught, never mind denied it outright. They simply believe it and act incredulous about the fact that I do not.
     
  20. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    It's open theism, if it's coming from me. It most definitely is not Pelagiansim.

    As for God's foreknowledge. God knows all knowable things, that He wants to know.

    Genesis 18:21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

    Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

    Jeremiah 19:5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind), (repeated at Jeremiah 32:35)

    Isaiah 43:25 “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins.

    Ezekiel 33:16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

    Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” (See also Hebrews 10:17)​
     
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