Could someone explain?

Here is a sample of what the OT contains that forshadows Mary:

The burning bush (Ex 1)
The tabernacle
The Pot of Manna (ex 16)
The Rod of Aaron
The Golden Censer
The Ark of the Covenant
The Gate of Ezekiel
Jacob's ladder

And a bit of an explanation can be found at:
http://www.stgeorgechurch.org/uploadfiles/Other%20Pamphlets/04-Symbols%20of%20Saint%20Mary%20in%20the%20Old%20Testament.pdf

There of course is much more.

Blessings

 

And so we see how starting with Adam and Eve how
the church slipped into apostasy by turning the BIBLE into an allegorical story book...

 

Do you say there is no allegory. Paul himself says that the Rock that the Israelites drank from was Christ. You can put your head in the sand and say that none of what I posted is true if you would like but the parrellels for instance between Luke 1 and 2 Sam 6 make it clear that you are immitating an ostrich. And the Church does not just see allegory in the Scriptures. But there is also that component. Can you tell me you cannot see baptism in the episode of the Jews crossing the Jordan in to the promised land for instance? Surely you see the Cross in the story of the serpant or when moses holds his arms up and the isrealites prevail in battle. You better.

Of course allegory creates problems for Protestants who see one and only one interprutation of a particular verse, limiting it to the literal sense. As Catholic we look at the literal first but that does not exclude the allegorical and the anogogical sense (forshadowing of future events).
Now allegory needs bounds, but that is why we have a Church.

Blessings

117. "The spiritual SENSE. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
1. The allegorical SENSE. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.[Cf. 1 Cor 10:2 .]
2. The moral SENSE. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written 'for our instruction'.[1 Cor 10:11 ; cf. Heb 3:1 -4:11 .]
3. The anagogical SENSE (Greek: anagoge, 'leading'). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.[Cf. Rev 21:1 - 22:5.]"

[ October 08, 2003, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

I don't want to get into an arguing match, but perhaps you could show where she was sinless, from Scripture. Why is she exempt from Romans 3:23? What is the warrant for saying she is sinless?

In Christ,
Neal

 

I don't want to get into an arguing match, but perhaps you could show where she was sinless, from Scripture. Why is she exempt from Romans 3:23? What is the warrant for saying she is sinless?

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Neal, I don't want to get into a hassle over this subject either, but all of you are jumping on Carson, so I just had to say something.

Why do we not see what we believe about Mary, in scripture, as specifically as you would demand, insofar as what we Catholics believe about her?

One important fact is, she almost lived to the end of the apostolic era (scholars think.) She probably did die before John, the last apostle to live and who wrote the book of Revelation, in exile, on the island of Patmos, but for the most part, out of pure respect for the Mother of Jesus, what was to become New Testament scripture will not elaborate on her sanctity while she was still alive!

Therefore, almost all of what we believe about her developed immediately after the end of the apostolic era, in reflection back to her and her life, some who knew her personally, and perhaps some who actually witnessed her "disappearance" at the end of her life (dead or still alive, we don't know - some thinking she was assumed to heaven while still alive.)

So, without getting into the details and to save a lot of typing, I refer all to the following link:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS9.HTM

Here you will find lots of reading on the subject of Mary, her Assumption and Immaculate Conception, plus other links and places to go.

The only thing I can add to the subject is, the concern about relics. Another hot topic!

We have the tomb of Peter, under St. Peter's in Rome, and also the head of Paul (I think) as relics of the apostles, and some interesting claims of bones, hair, even garments, etc, of the others, be they authentic or not. The point I am making is the claims of having them. All of the saints, both modern and ancient, for the most part, have "first class relics" somewhere, in some church, boasted by some city and some country. Tourist attractions, no doubt, and admittedly, some of them probably fraudulant.

There is a saying that if all of the fragments of the true cross could be brought together into one place, there would be enough wood for an entire forrest!

But one thing you will never see:

The claim of having the body, bones, or whatever, of Mary, the Mother of God! Not one claim! There is the claim of where she last lived, even the possible site of her last resting place, but no body, not even a fragment!

That proves nothing, of course, but it is food for thought!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages
call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-48)

 

All of these and the other list as well foreshadow Christ. Christ is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. None of this foreshadows Mary. She did not and could not have taken away the sin of the world. She could not deliver her own soul.

Bro. Dallas

 

Having read the link posted concerning the typology of Mary in the OT. I am now convinced this is at best idolotry. Christ is the message from Genesis 1.1 to Revelation 22.21.

Fairy tales have more truth in them than what is found in this article.

Bro. Dallas

 

Bro. Dallas, has anyone among the Catholics here claimed any such a things about Mary?

Of course, Christ is all the things you claim for him! He and only He takes away the sins of the world!

I simply thank God that Mary cooperated with the angel that all of this is so.

Mary is not a goddess. We do not worship her anymore then I "worship" my own deceased mother!

But she is the Theotokos, the "God bearer," the Mother of God!

So, I will honor her at every opportunity, thank you very much!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages
call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-48)

 

Thank-you for your response, Bill. I will try to look over the site you gave. I just wanted to point out that I was not trying to jump on Carson, I was just asking him an apologetic's question . For someone to go from a fact/event to a conclusion they must have some sort of warrant that will carry weight. I was just wondering what that was for him.

However, I do agree that some are jumping on him! Of course, what else are Catholics good for! (That was JUST a joke! ) Thank-you for your kind posts, Bill.

God Bless,
Neal

 

Thank-you for your response, Bill. I will try to look over the site you gave. I just wanted to point out that I was not trying to jump on Carson, I was just asking him an apologetic's question . For someone to go from a fact/event to a conclusion they must have some sort of warrant that will carry weight. I was just wondering what that was for him.

However, I do agree that some are jumping on him! Of course, what else are Catholics good for! (That was JUST a joke! ) Thank-you for your kind posts, Bill.

God Bless,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]No, you were not jumping on Carson per say, but there was a bit of a bunching-up going on!

Also, Carson is quite capable of handling the situation, watching him in action over the few years I have known him.

You, people "jump on us Catholics"? Nah, we are used to it!

You should see some of the forums I get on, all by myself ususally...

God bless you and yours, Neal!

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

Dear Bill,
I will give to you that Scripture says Mary is blessed among women. But I cannot make her the center of Scripture. That is too far.

Bro. Dallas

 

Pearls before swine.....

What greater love than a Mother for her only son.

Sometimes we seem to get caught up in the books and verses, the exegesis and hermen..whatevers and refuse to see the picture clearly.. idolatry you say?! -and worship of a book (albeit not just any book) is still idolatry! The Bible is not a book strictly for proving one's position, as it tells a story of our Human existence as it struggles with the contemplation of our Creator and His endeavor to make Himself known to and save His creations. We see example after example of people that God uses for making us aware of His truth and His spirtual realm (heaven) as he wishes us to know it.
What greater example of a Christian do we have than Jesus' own Mother. What greater example of a human being who has received the abundance of God's grace to the point of fullness.
Just a womb...for Jesus to pass the time? What total disrespect and outrage Jesus must feel.
Listen to the story of Mary from the sparse facts we have in the Bible.
See Mary, when solicited from the Archangel, and through her "yes", in her total and absolute humility bring true Life into the world.
Against the harsh and potentially fatal judgments of her fellow clan she gives God her fiat.
See Mary as a sort-of reverse fulfilment of the typology of Eve in the garden, who when solicited by an angel (albeit fallen) chooses pride, to "be like God" and brings death into the world.

See Mary's soul MAGNIFY the Lord. And how all nations shall honor her with the knowledge of her complete act of charity, and call her "blessed".
See Mary, 5 times total, speak in the NT and go past the words to a mother who knows the singular gift God has bestowed on her and yet she remains silent, prayerful, humble and obedient.
See Mary who is told at Jesus' anointing how a sword shall pierce her soul too. And see her at the foot of the cross as she suffers at the sight of her beloved son and saviour, pierced by a sword and disfigured and abused probably beyond recognition, no mere Mother could have suffered and accepted it with obedience and humility - this unseen sword that pierced her too.
We tend to only know Jesus as saviour, Mary knew Him, in His humanity, yet as her Savior and one who was to suffer. Did she demand answers from God as to why our saviour was to suffer? Or did she contemplate these things in the quiet of her heart?

See Mary as one who knew her son as a child and a man, a son. Just as you might know your own sons and daughters. A mother, with a mothers instinct for protection and guidance. The ideal mother. The very thing that Jesus knew His own Mother as best. Not an idol for worship, not a walking womb, but a true and humble handmaid of the Lord and a Mother.

We too know her as a Mother, for are we not brothers in Christ?
A mother for our Lord and a spirtual Mother for ourselves who constantly in the service of the Lord prays for her children; that we too may love God with all our hearts and with all our being, without reserve.
And finally know that we as Catholics who seem to constantly be yelling the praises of our Blessed Mother, know that she in her total commitment to her Son and with great humility can ONLY point to her Son and say as she did at His first Miracle: "Do as my son says."

God Bless... chapter and verse indeed.

 

"All of these and the other list as well foreshadow Christ. Christ is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. None of this foreshadows Mary. She did not and could not have taken away the sin of the world. She could not deliver her own soul.

Bro. Dallas "

Where did we say she could. Nothing that Mary did or could do or can do is of her own accord. She did not ascend but was assumed in to heaven. She was not sinless by mear act of will but by the grace of God that prevents sin. It acts in you and I every day so that we are not down at the bar every night getting so drunk we can't stand, waking up with some woman who's name we don't know and a scratchy nose from sniffing cocaine. Augustine says it best in his Confessions when he laments the sins he would be committing had he not found Christ.

 

I believe the Word of God is inspired. I believe Christ is its center. I do believe Mary is blessed among women, but I do not believe she is what you make of her. You say by her: 'yes' "she brought true life into the world" can you not see the place you exalt this woman to, a place above God.

Jesus also told the Jews:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" Scripture and verse? John 5.39.

Now you are going to tell me some Papal Bull declares 'me' to be Mary? See, Jesus did not hold his mother in the regard you do. He no where put her in the center of worship. No where.

Bro. Dallas

 

Is it not through Jesus that we have Life everlasting? -True Life. Was not God dependent on Mary's free will assent to His divine will in order for Christ to be conceived in her virginal womb. How can someone whose soul magnifies the Lord and whose admonition to us is: to do as her Divine son says, deign to accept such exaltation as to place her above God? The answer is that she doesn't . And we do not seek to do so. In a family everyone knows there proper role. How is it to be received by her son when we refer to her as "this woman"?! Did Jesus follow the commandment to honor his Mother? Do you think by our God honoring his own Mother, that he placed her above Himself. And we in emulating our savior by honoring his mother do we do God one better? Of course not.

We simply look to her as a most blessed example and advocate of Christian commune. If it takes on exalted-like terms perhaps those who do not quite understand the context of this honor bestowed on our Blessed Mother are the ones who should strive to understand the basis for this deep respect and spirtual communion.

If "woman behold your son and son behold your mother" is placing her in the center of Christian worship then so be it. I think that's quite a reach and a quite a bit exaggerated.

There is but one mediator between God and Man. And for some bigoted (to borrow the definition previously supplied) reason, people accuse Catholics as believing that to be Mary. When Mary clearly and plainly says: Do as my son says. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Thank God for Mary pointing to the Way the Truth and the Life! If you choose to "exalt" the Bible over Christ's own mother as being the sole means to direct us to God that is certainly your respected perogative. If Catholics prefer the Bible and the Blessed Mother how is that so offensive to you?


Blessings

 

The problem with the catholics is that they exalted Mary above what is written in the Scriptures in so much as they make her the center of their devotion. Mary can not help us in matter of our salvation. She herself was saved just like all of us.

She is not:

Mother of the Church,
Virgin most powerful,
Seat of wisdom,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs,
Queen of prophets,
Queen of apostles,
Queen of martyrs,
Queen of confessors,
Queen of virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
Queen of families
Queen of peace

Again you who believe her to be like these is guilty of idolatry and unless you repent of these foolishness you are surely going to hell. (Rev. 21: 8)

 

I don't want to get into an arguing match, but perhaps you could show where she was sinless, from Scripture. Why is she exempt from Romans 3:23? What is the warrant for saying she is sinless?

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Round and round we go and all neal can say is "my opinion is no".

Scripture records no sin of Mary. It says she is "full of grace" in luke 1. You say, well that is not what that really means by my opinion. I say, I don't go by opinions.

The Catholic Church says Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The evidence is clear from 2 Sam 6, Luke 1, Rev 11 and 12 that it is true. Neal says "my opinion is no". I say that's nice but I don't go by opinions. Romans 3:23? What is the all on that verse Neal? Every man, woman and child? Oh but wait, children below the age of reason cannot sin (though this age of reason is found nowhere in the scripture, I do agree with it) Neal says. And last I checked Baptists don't believe in Original sin (not that that would fit Pauls verse anyway) so all evidently is not an all encompassing all now is it. Then of course Jesus was a man and so "all have sinned" certainly does not include every single man or it would have to include him. Now why didn't Paul have to make these exceptions here. Are there other exceptions? I know of only one other (other than Adam and Eve before the fall of course. That verse would have been false before that time.). Surely the early Church knew of the parrellel's of Mary and the AOC and of her purity as compared to the Ark's purity. Paul had no reason to make such an exception to the Romans . So there you have it. You can strain away all you want Neal and say it is my opinion that it is not true. But it still is.

Blessings

 

Froggie:

"I believe the Word of God is inspired. I believe Christ is its center. I do believe Mary is blessed among women, but I do not believe she is what you make of her. You say by her: 'yes' "she brought true life into the world" can you not see the place you exalt this woman to, a place above God."

Do you deny that she brought true life in to the world in the form of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Had she said no, would she have brought Jesus Christ, the savior of mankind in to the world? No and the statement would not be true. But it is true. The question of whether God would have saved mankind in a different way is moot because he knew from all eternity she would say yes. I simply do not see anything that is wrong with the statement you have put in our mouths. I will say it myself so you can quote me. MARY BROUGHT TRUE LIFE INTO THE WORLD. There now you have a Catholic Apologist to quote. The life she brought in to the world was Jesus Christ. Do you deny this?

For you info, Mary is not the center of our faith by any means. Do you not know that the Rosary is primarily a meditation on the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The mother points to her son. Have you heard of the Mass? Have you heard of the Eucharist? That is the summit of worship in the Catholic faith. And it is 100% Jesus!

Blessings

 

If she were 1,000 times that of what is posted above, she would still pale in comparison with her own Divine Son!

Here is another litany for you, given in my "tagline":

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, have mercy on us.
LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, hear us.
CHRIST, graciously hear us.
GOD, THE FATHER OF HEAVEN, have mercy on us.
GOD THE SON, REDEEMER OF THE WORLD, have mercy on us.
GOD THE HOLY GHOST, have mercy on us.
HOLY TRINITY, ONE GOD, have mercy on us.
HOLY MARY, pray for us.
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, pray for us.
HOLY VIRGIN OF VIRGINS, pray for us.
ST. MICHAEL, pray for us.
ST. GABRIEL, pray for us.
ST. RAPHAEL, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY ANGELS AND ARCHANGELS, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY ORDERS OF BLESSED SPIRITS, pray for us.
ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST, pray for us.
ST. JOSEPH, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, pray for us.
ST. PETER, pray for us.
ST. PAUL, pray for us.
ST. ANDREW, pray for us.
ST. JAMES, pray for us.
ST. JOHN, pray for us.
ST. THOMAS, pray for us.
ST. JAMES, pray for us.
ST. PHILIP, pray for us.
ST. BARTHOLOMEW, pray for us.
ST. MATTHEW, pray for us.
ST. SIMON, pray for us.
ST. THADDEUS, pray for us.
ST. BARNABAS, pray for us.
ST. LUKE, pray for us.
ST. MARK, pray for us.
ST. PATRICK, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY APOSTLES AND EVANGELIST, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY DISCIPLES OF OUR LORD, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY INNOCENTS, pray for us.
BE MERCIFUL, spare us, O Lord!
BE MERCIFUL, graciously hear us, O Lord!
FROM ALL EVIL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM ALL SIN, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THY WRATH, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM A SUDDEN AND UNPROVIDED DEATH, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE DECEITS OF THE DEVIL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM ANGER, HATRED, AND ALL ILL WILL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE SPIRIT OF FORNICATION, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM LIGHTNING AND TEMPEST, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE SCOURGE OF EARTHQUAKE, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM PESTILENCE, FAMINE, AND WAR, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM EVERLASTING DEATH, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THE MYSTERY OF THY HOLY INCARNATION, O Lord, Deliver us.
THROUGH THY COMING, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY NATIVITY, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY BAPTISM AND HOLY FASTING, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY CROSS AND PASSION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY DEATH AND BURIAL, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY HOLY RESURRECTION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THINE ADMIRABLE ASCENSION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THE COMING OF THE HOLY GHOST, THE PARACLETE, O Lord, deliver us.
IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, We Sinners beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST SPARE US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST PARDON US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO BRING US TO TRUE PENANCE, We Beseech Thee hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GOVERN AND PRESERVE THY HOLY CHURCH.... We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO PRESERVE OUR APOSTOLIC PRELATE AND ALL ECCLESIASTICAL ORDERS IN HOLY RELIGION. We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO HUMBLE THE ENEMIES OF THY HOLY CHURCH, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE PEACE AND TRUE CONCORD TO CHRISTIAN KINGS AND PRINCES, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GRANT PEACE AND UNITY TO ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO BRING BACK TO THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH ALL THOSE WHO HAVE STRAYED AWAY, AND LEAD TO THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL ALL UNBELIEVERS, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO CONFIRM AND PRESERVE US THY HOLY SERVICE, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST LIFT UP OUR MINDS TO HEAVENLY DESIRES, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST RENDER ETERNAL BLESSINGS TO ALL OUR BENEFACTORS, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST DELIVER OUR SOULS AND THOSE OF OUR BRETHREN, RELATIVE, AND BENEFACTORS FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE AND PRESERVE THE FRUITS OF THE EARTH, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE ETERNAL REST TO ALL THE FAITHFUL DEPARTED, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE GRACIOUSLY TO HEAR US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
SON OF GOD, We beseech Thee, hear us.
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Spare us, O Lord.
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Graciously hear us, O Lord
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Have mercy on us.
CHRIST, HEAR US.......
CHRIST, GRACIOUSLY HEAR US.......
LORD, HAVE MERCY ON US.......
CHRIST, HAVE MERCY ON US.......
LORD, HAVE MERCY ON US.......

- The Litany of Saints -