D L Moody on 10 Commandments and Sabbath

In Gen 2:3 God "RESTED" on the Day HE chose.

In Exodus 20:8-11 God Himself argues that the Gen 2:3 FACT of HIS rest ALONE - establishes mans obligation.

As D. L. Moody writes - it was KEPT (as a Holy Day of Rest and worship) STARTING in the Garden of Eden.

The notion of "ignoring God's word" actually IN the Commandment while claiming to honor the command given (in this case the Holy day the Word speaks of) - is not supported in all of scripture.

That is true in general - not just with the 4th commandment.

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is a kind of shadow gospel argument in some churches that if you ignore God's Word when it is in the form of a direct Command of God to you in scripture - then you do a good thing.

If you find a way to honor part of that using a lot of "in Christ" phraseology - then perhaps you can "get by" with obeying some of what God said without getting into too much criticism from fellow Christians.

That is totally not the argument that D. L. Moody makes as quoted in the OP.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I a recent post - eschatologist argues that the entire Law of God was nailed ot the cross.

It appears that D. L. Moody takes an entirely different view of the Ten Commandments.

Thoughts?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well then - notice "the details" in the LINK in the OP -- see what Moody actually said.

In the article Moody points out that the Sabbath is from sundown to sundown (surprisingly he uses God's Bible method - I think you were not expecting that).

AS I have already noted - he feels the commandment is "open to editing" so that Saturday (as he and God have selected it) is not the only choice for a day.

Read his sermon - notice that his argument is that God has made this authorotative and binding.

(Something I know you object to).

I am simply pointing out that in that regard - he makes my case, my part of the argument for certain aspects of this Ten Commandments topic.

I don't think they view him as a Pope or something. My point is that the salient points in his arguments FOR the TEN commandments and to a large extent FOR the Christ the Creator's FOURTH commandment are EXACTLY what I have been arguing.

Obviously - the majority here would not side with him - or me on those points.

But the "preference" seems to be that only a Sabbath keeping Christian would think of these points.

In Christ,

Bob

 

My point was not the Public Schools - but the Christian CHURCHES.

It is from the pulpits and in the church systems that ENDORSE evilutionism where we ALSO find endorsement of the abortion agenda and the gay agenda.

No Sabbath keeping church would do such a thing because their foundation is in CHRIST THE CREATOR starting 6000 years ago. It starts with ALL of Christ and the role of mankind to its creator as God affirms in Rev 14:6-7 AND as we see continued in all of eternity in the New Earth in Isaiah 66 "from Sabbath to Sabbath SHALL ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Kind of an "I will take any point against Christ the Creator's day -- wherever I can find it" approach eh?

"The point" is not that Moody is an SDA by any means.

"The point" is that if you actually look at the details - the salient points in the arguments that you have piled up against the Day that Christ created - you will "notice" that Moody actually OPPOSES the "Ten Commandments dead" and the "Sabbath commandment ENDED" and the "Sabbath NOT given to Adam" and the ... that you actually use.

I grant you the "consolation" that "well at least Moody does not fully accept Christs day unchanged" -- (as though that does some service to your argument).

My point is that when we "look at the details" the BASIS for Moody's position is completely antithetical to yours so much so that he is taking MY SIDE of those very arguments - case-by-case.

But your motivation/spirit and intent are fully exposed when you feel it to be some consolation or victory that "well in any case - just as long as Christ's Day is not getting the full recognition HE gave it then at least that is something" when you are faced with the obvious fact that Moody rejects the ENTIRE BASIS of your argument.

That would be like my claiming that Heb 10 DOES show us that Christ fully satistfied the predictive law of sacrifices and ended them as the text says -- only to be confronted by an atheist that says "No there is no God, and Christ did nothing for mankind - but we get to ignore God's Word on Sacrifice just the same" -- where MY response is "oh well good - as long as in the end the result is that we get to ignore God's Word regarding sacrifices".

When Moody takes your argument apart on the SAME points that I do - you can't simply ignore that and then say "well just as long as in the end there is room for Ignoring Christ the Creator's Holy Day by moving it to Sunday if nothing else".

You can't have an "any argument will do as long as the result changes the commandment in some way or abolishes it" approach and have that be consistent with the argument you have been making to this point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

NOR is it the view of ANY sunday keeping Christian that has posted on this topic so far.

The choice SO FAR on this board has been that the commandment is either in force or it is not - "editing it" has not been argued for... "So far".

Moody takes the RC position that "editing" is valid, while LEAVING the commandment fULLY in place and admitting that it STARTS in Eden with Adam and admitting that it has always applied to MANKIND from the very start in Eden.

The BASIS for your argument against Christ's day so far (and the argument all others have taken) is that the Commandment IS UNCHANGED (not edited) but abolished at the cross and ONLY applied to Jews.

A more diametrically opposed argument could not be formed against your view than the one Moody proposes in the "arguments FOR the commandments and FOR the 4th commandment" that he gives. In fact in that regard - he gives MY arguments ALREADY made here.

In the text of the link quoting Moody - he makes no attempt at all to defend then idea that the commandment is "editable by the whims and traditions of men" while remaining in full force.

In Christ,

Bob

 

CHrist Himself argues that the priests do the most work on Sabbath and yet are not guilty of breaking the commandment to rest and worship on that day.

There is no sin in preaching on Sunday. There is no sin in preaching on Sabbath - even though this is a lot of work for the preacher.

It does not break the 4th commandment to attend church on Sunday. The question is NOT - 'what did I do on Tuesday' - the Question is "What is Christ's command regarding HIS Holy Day" and did I honor THAT - or man's tradition INSTEAD.

I can go to an Easter Sunrise (resurrection Sunrise) service on Sunday morning as is the custom and tradtion of man. Doing so does nothing to break Christ's Sabbath. It is not sin to observe a tradition in ADDITION to the Word of God -- it is only sin if it is done INSTEAD of a direct Command from God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Is this the part where you quote the 27FB and prove your point??

Are you trying to "get me to believe" that attending church on Sunday is "the mark of the beast"????

I sure hope not.

BTW - the church in North America is having a global evangelistic program that meets ON SUNDAY as well as TUESDAY (and other days -- even Sabbath) - is it your claim that we are labeling ourselves as having the Mark of the Beast because we went to church on Sunday??

Sunday, and Monday and oh-yes Wednesday (prayer meeting on that day is pure worship as are the meetings on the other days)

Are you asking about Christ's reference to the Priests working on Sabbath???

Are you arguing that Christ thought that anybody could do any work they wanted to on Sabbath because of the Priest's work???

Are you really thinking your argument through?

Ok - so thou-shalt not murder is "spiritualized" and no longer literally true?

Or do you mean that it is BOTH literally true AND spiritually true?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Gerhard - I am not sure what kind of logic you are using there - but is it your position that Christ did NOT rise on the FIRST day of the Week?

Are you saying that Christ rose on the Seventh-day of the week and the Bible simply forgets to mention it or make the point explicitly?

I see the Bible saying that Christ RESTED on the 7th day in Gen 2:3 AND RESTED on the 7th day on Passion Week. He rose from the dead on the first day of the week. So observing a resurrection-Sunday service (a yearly service not a weekly service) that commemorates Christ's resurrection seems like a good thing to do. Certainly not forbidden in scripture.

In addition - going to worship service on Wednesday (prayer meeting etc) is no sin and neither would it be sin to attend Sunday School and Church on Sunday.

For others that is "meat offerred to idols" and they would not choose to partake. I understand that and respect their view.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?" -- Matthew 12:5

Your argument seems to be with Christ on that point - take it up with Him.

My argument was that Moody is choosing as HIS "DAY of REST" the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord our God - rather than the first day of church-tradition.

In doing so - he is still not as fully aligned with Christ the Creator's Command in his teaching as would be say - oh I don't know -- a Seventh-day Baptist - but he is much close than the anti-Sabbath positions of some on this board.

No I am not sure I do since the argument is with CHRIST's statement that they are NOT breaking the rest on Sabbath that is required - by ministering before the Lord on that day.

Is it your claim that He is mistaken - that in fact that ARE not keeping ANY day holy at all?

Actually - if you notice the 'details' it is the BIBLE that says "GOD sanctified the 7th day" and "THEREFORE God made IT Holy" and "God BLESSED the 7th-day".

There is nothing an SDA can do to change that fact. It is in the Bible "to stay".

When "others" claim that "THEY" have the same power as God to bless and sanctify any day of their choosing and make THAT day Holy so that they are free to keep whichever day they choose - INSTEAD of keeping the Day Christ CREATED for that purpose -- we simply "note" along with the Seventh-day Baptists, that they use no scripture at all to make those claims.

You may take a nap on Sunday, may go to Sunday School and church on Sunday (or even Tuesday) - and STILL you have not violated Christ's command regarding HIS OWN Seventh-day MEMORIAL of Creation. It is not until you get to HIS day and refuse to honor it, refuse to keep IT Holy that you are confronting the 4th commandment with your own 'thus sayeth man's tradition'.

The Catholic commentary on the Baltimore catechism post
Vatican ii explains that keeping Sunday is in obedience to the Sabbath commandment. Catholics attend "in obedience to the third commandment of God 'remember thou keep holy the Lord's day'"
((from "The Faith Explained" pg 241.))

page 243

Ten Commandments -

Note: Catholic teaching embraces the authority of the 10 commandments - all ten, and makes them obligatory for all Catholics.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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BTW - the church in North America is having a global evangelistic program that meets ON SUNDAY as well as TUESDAY (and other days -- even Sabbath) - is it your claim that we are labeling ourselves as having the Mark of the Beast because we went to church on Sunday??
quote:
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bob said
Sunday, and Monday and oh-yes Wednesday (prayer meeting on that day is pure worship as are the meetings on the other days)

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Moody is the one making that argument. In his case it works SINCE the day he picks to honor and rest on - IS IN FACT the Lord's own Day - the "Sabbath of the Lord thy God"


quote:Bob said
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Is this the part where you quote the 27FB and prove your point??

Are you trying to "get me to believe" that attending church on Sunday is "the mark of the beast"????

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No need to worry. Attending church on Sunday is not in any of them.


quote: Bob said
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Are you arguing that Christ thought that anybody could do any work they wanted to on Sabbath because of the Priest's work???

Are you really thinking your argument through?

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Spoken like a Pharisee.

I still think Christ was right.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob said
Ok - so thou-shalt not murder is "spiritualized" and no longer literally true?

Or do you mean that it is BOTH literally true AND spiritually true?
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I think you are mixing your metaphores there - but going with the "intent" of your response - I respond back.

So you AGREE that in the case of Murder you can not HATE AND you can not ACTUALLY MURDER. The "magnify" idea is to support sustain AND expand on -- rather than abolish/anull AND CHANGE directions altogether - right?

Of course (as it turns out) Hatred toward your neighbor was ALSO NOT allowed in the OT Lev 19:18 "You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself" - so the MAGNIFYING of the "Thou shalt not murder commandment" LIke the Magnifying of ALL the commandments of God - was simnply to honor and OBEY that which had already been given. Hatred was ALWAYS sin - not just in the NT. Lust ws ALWAYS sin not just in the NT.

The spiritual mangification ALWAYS EXPANDS the obligation NEVER annulls it.

The 4th commandment remains as Moody points out.

It remains without EDIT as the 7th-day Baptists point out.

Well first of all - I applaud you for recognizing that problem.

Here you are leaping off a cliff to Claim that Christ came to nail HIS OWN WORD to the Cross instead of the bogus teachings and traditions of men.

(Of course He in fact nailed NEITHER ONE to the cross according to scritpure).

INSTEAD of nailing the LAW of God to the cross (as many have hoped) the LAW of God REMAINS.

In Rev 12 it is the SAINTS that "Keep the Commandments of God" they did not PULL THEM OFF THE CROSS!!

In Rom 3:31 our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW of GOD" but not by having to "PULL IT BACK OFF THE CROSS".

IN Romans 2 it is those that "DO the LAW that WILL BE JUSTIFIED" and not by DOING that which they must first PULL off the CROSS.

IN Romans 3 the LAW STILL authorotatively binds ALL mankind under sin - showing that EACH is bound for hell UNLESS they accept salvation.

James 2 we are told that we will be JUDGED by that Law.

In Eph 6:1-2 we are told that the FIFTH commandment is the FIRST commandment in that list WITH a promise. It is not pulled back off the cross so that we can get to the promise.

It was never nailed to the cross in the first place.

The "CERTIFICATE OF DEBT" for each one of us WAS nailed to the cross - but not the LAW OF GOD on which the certificate is based. AND not the THRONE of God on which the LAW of God is based.

So absolutely true!

A good thing for those who wish to REMOVE Christ the Creator's own day - to remember.

This is totally bogus as anyone can see.

#1. Anyone that keeps Sabbath for 7 days - would have to stop work for 7 days. That is not holy - it is lazy.

#2. Anyone that argues you have to be God's child ONLY one day a week but not 7 days a week - never kept Sabbath EVEN in the OT. THat was NOT the position of the Sabbath keeping saints of Heb 11 "Obviously". The argument above is a "ploy" that is acceptable only if you don't take the Word of God seriously on this particular point of the 4th commandment.


"Do we make VOID the Law? God forbid; yea we ESTABLISH [the true spiritual INTENT of] the Law".

Indeed - not by TAKING Away but by AFFIRMING the authority and continuation of EACH commandment and by giving it greater honor in "real" life.

Far be it from me to argue that. I say don't ACTUALL murder and don't ACTUALLY hate.

Don't ACTUALLY violate the 7th-day Sabbath and don't ACTUALLY turn from following God all week long.

"Others" seeking to violate that command will say "ACTUALL VIOLATE the 7th day Sabbath but DON'T actually turn from being a Christian during the week".

Such a conflicted argument could never be compelling in an environment where God's day is honored.

I am thinking of the Isaiah 66 case now "From SABBATH to SABBATH shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

Very true you must not work AND you must KEEP IT HOLY. The only way to KEEP something Holy is to first BE Holy and that can only be done as a born-again Christian.

But the notion that you KEEP IT HOLY by flagrantly violating the day - is not supported in all of scripture.

Hence Moody's sermon.

IN Christ,

Bob