1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Deadly free-will choices from the Garden until right now

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Jan 28, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Samuels

    Samuels Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    It’s all about free-will choices …
    to believe God, to believe His warnings, and to obey Him … or not.

    Just like it all started in the Garden of Eden and continued through the ages.

    Adam and Eve were given a fabulous life in the Garden.
    Their lives were filled with great delight and promise for all of eternity.
    Their part was just simply to obey God.
    Their love and appreciation for God and their obedience were tested.
    Satan, the tempter, was the medium for this.
    He said don’t believe God and obey Him for “You will not surely die.”
    He deceived them into choosing to follow their wishes over God’s wishes.
    The result of their sin was death … physical and spiritual.

    Born-again believers are given God’s free gift of grace.
    Their lives are filled with great delight and promise for all of eternity.
    Ah, you say, and they can do whatever they please!
    But, no … their part is simply to obey God.
    Their love and appreciation for God and their obedience will be tested.
    Satan, the tempter, is the medium for this.
    He says don’t believe God and obey Him for “You will not surely die.”
    He deceives many into choosing to follow their wishes over God’s wishes.
    The result of their sin is death … physical and spiritual.

    It’s Adam and Eve all over again every day for us!
    It’s all about free-will choices to believe and obey God, or not.

    “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
    he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
    But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown,
    brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-16)


    Many Christians today like to insist that this “death” is merely physical.
    So, they are saying that Jesus is going around killing believers who fail the James test.

    Notice that those who love Jesus endure the temptation to sin, and are thus “approved”.
    (Jesus says 4 times in John 14 that those who love Him will obey His commandments.)
    And those who fail to overcome the temptation to sin are faced with eternal death.

    “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
    that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God,
    which is your reasonable service.” (Romans 12:1)


    “you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
    whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
    or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness …
    so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:16-19)
     
  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    You skipped right to Christians and their relationship with God within the New Covenant. You ignored the truth that dead people, lost in sin, have no freedom to choose God's redemption. Dead persons cannot choose until they are made alive. Who is it that makes us alive in Christ Jesus? Please read Ephesians 2:1-10 and get back to us with the answer.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    35,772
    Likes Received:
    970
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Real free will, in the sense many here seem to see it as being, ceased when ADam fell!
     
  4. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    True. From the moment Adam and Eve sinned there became a need for a Redeemer that would come. We can't choose our own redeemer. God must provide the Redeemer.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    35,772
    Likes Received:
    970
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And hea had to provide for ustheactual means to bable to accept tha Messiah, as being spiritual dead, we woul just keep on rejecting that offer!
     
  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    As a spiritually dead person one would not even recognize the need for a Redeemer. God would need to quicken the conscience of the unregenerate soul.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    35,772
    Likes Received:
    970
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, as God Himelf had to make us enabled to respond to Jesus to ge saved!
     
  8. Samuels

    Samuels Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    If I skip over something in Scripture, I have ignored it?
    Should I write a commentary on all of Scripture and post it for you?
    One place for you to start in Ephesians is 1:1.
    Paul is writing to "faithful" believers.
    Do you have any in your church?
    Do you know what the life of a "faithful" believer is like?
    It is one of obedience.
    Jesus said He did not come to do away with the Law, i.e. Ten Commandments.
    He said to keep them.
    Grace is of use, if one obeys the Lord.
    Disobedience proves unbelief (Hebrews 3).
     
  9. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Ephesians 2:1
    "You were dead"
    Those elect of God were once dead in their sins.

    Ephesians 2:5
    "But, God made you alive in Christ"
    Our standing before God is only in Christ alone.
    We obey God, not to be saved, but because we love the God who saved us by grace.
    If salvation could come by the law then there would have been no need for Jesus sacrifice.
     
  10. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    [Personal attack edited] They were dead in sin and transgressions...They were slaves to sin, which is the love of self, but they could chose to believe.

    Sinners make choices everyday. They chose to go to work...they choose to go to college...they make all sorts of choices, but everything they do is polluted with self-love, not agape.

    So yes, the sinner can chose Christ. Who are you kidding?
     
  11. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Dead in sin or alive in Christ.

    We are born dead in sin. God and only God makes us alive in Christ.

    There is no choice. We cannot ever make our selves alive. It can't be done.

    You are making an argument that is non-biblical and made from faulty exegesis. No matter how hard you try, you cannot cull choice out of Ephesians 2:1-10. You have to be untruthful with the text to claim choice from this passage. Even more so, you have to ignore all of Ephesians 1 to imagine choice being taught.

    No, the only choice is God choosing to make us alive on Christ...or not. If not then God is just. If yes then God is gracious.

    Solo gratia
     
  12. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Why don't you start paying attention to your verb tenses, huh? When did God make you alive in Christ? Answer: While you were dead in sins and transgressions. God saved you by grace, even before you were conceived. When you were still "in Adam" (i.e, the loins of your ancestors) God saved you in His Son.

    Note the verb tenses:

    Eph 2:4 "...God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ (past tense) even when we were dead in transgressions (slaves to sin) it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ (past tense) and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...."

    This is a past, historical event that took place while you were in the loins of your fallen ancestors. God saved you by grace "in Christ" before you were born. That's the good news...But not only you, the entire human race....

    Again, Christ's work is complete...it is finished. He doesn't chose favorites. That concept is a narcissistic, self-righteous view. God loves all men, unconditionally, and He saved all men in Christ Jesus. This is the gospel.

    The gospel needs to be received by faith to make it effective in the believer's life.

     
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Of course we were dead first. Then God made us alive.

    Were dead comes before made alive. It's quite simple and very elegantly explained in the text.

    You're working awfully hard to make a pretzel.

    The text says that God has to gift you faith. Faith comes after you are made alive.

    1 = Dead
    2 = Made alive by God
    3 = God gifts the person with faith

    That's the order described in Ephesians 2:1-10.
     
  14. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Romans 5:8 God demonstrates his own love (agape) for us in this: while we were still sinners (i.e., slaves to sin - dead in transgressions), Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him (past tense) through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
     
  15. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    You are being a legalistic! This doesn't apply to your experience (You weren't even born yet)

    God made our corporate, fallen life "in Christ Jesus" spiritually alive. This happened when God united the Divinity of Christ to our corporate, fallen humanity from the womb of Mary. At that moment our corporate, fallen life from Adam was made spiritually alive.

    The gospel you are presenting is not the gospel of Paul...What you are presenting is pagan; based upon favoritism and legalistic heresy.
     
  16. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yep, we are dead and God shows us love.
    Yep, God considered us enemies and God did the work of reconciling us.
    God does the work.
    Thanks for making my point with God's word.
    It's all God.
     
  17. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Wrong again....God loves us...we hated Him....You got the enemy thing reversed.

    God saved you "in Christ" before you existed as an individual.
     
  18. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Yes, but not made alive in the individual MennoSota, but "in Christ Jesus" 2000 years ago. You can't see the forest for the trees.

    When you accept, that is believe, that "in Christ" your corporate, fallen humanity was already made spiritually alive "in Christ" then you experience what has already taken place in the holy history of Christ.
     
  19. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind (not the "elect") appeared (about 2000 year ago), 5 He saved us (i.e., mankind), not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly (where? in us. No!) in Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    "In Christ" we have already been justified by grace. This happened about 2000 years ago. Then God's Spirit is sent to "all men" to convince them that they are wretched sinners and in need of Christ the Savior of the world. Those who accept the gospel go from death to life. Those who reject the gospel will get eternal damnation.
     
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Show me where the phrase "accept Christ" is found in the Bible.

    What is funny is that you are arguing for election and you think you aren't.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...