depravity from another angle

Brother Ray,

Hello friend.


YOU (BROTHER RAY): Really, my friend, I do not have much faith in sinners, because they have the proclivity to continue in their sins. If the Holy Spirit does not continually cause them to be convicted and convinced of their sins, no one would turn to Christ

ME (BROTHER JOE): I agree.


YOU (BROTHER RAY):I believe it is not the Lord's will that any perish in Hell. [II Peter 3:9] . . . ' In this sense His will is that none would go to Hell. He, according to Scripture, gives sinners the complete possibility to know and follow Him. But, sinners follow their own sinful will


ME (BROTHER JOE's REPLY): If what you said above is true, then God's will is dependent upon man's will in order for it to be carried out and thus Man NOT God is
sovereign.


YOU (BROTHER RAY): By saying that the Lord, for whatever reason, picks only the 'few' to be saved, and damns forever in Hell the vast majority, turns Him into a Divine Monster, rather than a merciful God.

ME (BROTHER JOE's REPLY): Firstly, I must point out that wether calvinism is true or arminiasm is true there would still be the same amount of people in Hell and we both agree God knew this fact before he created human beings. WHY did he choose to create
the ones he KNEW would reject him and thereby go to spend an eternity in Hell?

***Secondly, I must also point out that your system though giving some men the chance to be saved by their personal choices, still doesnt have God treating all men equally, the very thing you despise about calvinism!! After all, in your system one must hear and have faith in the gospel to go to heaven, YET GOD NOT THE SINNER CHOOSES so many things that will effect his eternal destiny. After all, God not the sinner chooses and wills the family the sinner is born into, the country of his birth...all these things will gravely affect how much (IF ANY) of the gospel) or truth one is exposed to, thus isnt it obvious God does not treat everyone equally, but rather he has "mercy upon whom he will have mercy"?

Thirdly, you wrongly believe that election means that not many people will go to heaven. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; " (Revelation 7:9)

Interestingly Brother Ray, If one has to hear, understand, and accept the gospel in order to become saved, then how will heaven get populated with people from ALL KINDREDS, PEOPLE, AND TONGUES, after all, havent Some peoples and small tribes thoughout history ALREADY perished into extinction without ever having the gospel preached to?


Your brother and friend in Christ (albeit with opposite doctrinal views than yours lol),

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Aki,


BROTHER AKI SAID: meahwhile, what does it mean to say that Adam was our perfect representative? does it mean that what Adam did, that we will also do?

ME (BROTHER JOE's REPLY): Moreover, how did Adam even get indwelled with the desire to sin to begin with since he had no evil in him? If we say satan, then we offer only a temporary solution to the problem as we must then ask, how did satan ever get the desire to sin since presumably he had no evil in him to begin with? I believe , God choose to permit sin to come into existence because without the existence of sin he could not display history's HIGHTEST EXPRESSION of LOVE ,REDEMPTION, AND EXPRESSION OF GOD's GOODNESS-Christ willingly dieing for unworthy sinners at the cross of calvary as a substitute. This does not make God the author of evil BECAUSE what determines if something is evil or not IS MOTIVE, and God's motive for allowing evil was purely (in my view, though I am not doctrinal on this) SO HE CAN Show his highest expression of GOODNESS AND love to his elect children. Now that this has been accomplished, we look for the day when God purges the world of all evil at the coming of our Lord!

God bless you,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Aki:

YOU: now then the question. with the same fact, the non-elects does not seem to be the ones responsible for their own condemnation. rather, they seem to be victims, right?

ME: The nonelect are guilty via Adam who perfectly represented them (yes I believe every human being prior to being born again would have WILLINGLY done what Adam did if they took his place.)

Guilty criminals are not victims-although many prisoners doing life will tell you that they are.

The only difference between the nonelect and the elect is that God has intervened and paid the ransom (i.e. the penalty) for the elect. Therefore, the elect receive mercy, and the non elect receive justice. Notice in neither case God has done anything wrong, but rather God highlights two different attributes of his supreme being on judgement day.


Brother Joe

 

Wrong. We are born spiritually dead. You are right that we did not ask to be born spiritually dead, but that doesn't make us any less deserving of condemnation. A sinful man is a sinful man no matter how he got that way, and the wages of sin is still death.

Yes, we inherited our sinful nature and spiritual death from Adam, but let's get right to the core of the issue. If God decided tomorrow to create a spiritually dead sinful person from scratch, that person would still deserve what a spiritually dead sinful person deserves, whether he was created that way, got that way on his own, or inherited his nature from his parents. He is no victim of his nature, he IS his nature.

 

Brother Aki,

Good day.quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BrotherJoe:
The nonelect are guilty via Adam who perfectly represented them (yes I believe every human being prior to being born again would have WILLINGLY done what Adam did if they took his place.)
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Brother AKI's RESPONSE:
i have strong doubt if you could prove this by scripture, as nothing as such is said.


MY REPLY BROTHER JOE: It is not explicitly stated, but it is a logical conclusion to come to BASED UPON what the scripture DOES REVEAL TO US ABOUT WHO GOD IS. Given that we know from the scriptures that God is perfect, just, and Holy, and infallible, it follows THAT HIS CHOICE OF MY REPRESENTATIVE WOULD BE GREATER THAN MY OWN CHOICE. Given God's infalliblity his choice is an infallible choice. The only way this conclusion can be false is if one rejects the premises that they are built on-that God is fair, just, holy, and makes infallible choices. I cannot reject this.

People have no problem being represented by someone far greater and superior to them (i.e. Christ taking their punishment as a representative), however it is funny when some of these same people (no Im not saying this is you) reject to the principle of representation when it is = equal representation via Adam in the garden.

God Bless,

Brother Joe

 

Left to our own nature, we will be dealt with according to our nature, which is spiritually dead and evil. That is our nature whether or not we have a chance to do anything evil. I happen to believe God has mercy on people such as aborted babies, etc., but God is not under any obligation to have mercy on anyone.

Regardless of how God handles situations like the unborn, God has elected to change the nature of some to be conformed to the image of His Son, and they are adopted into His family.

These - the elect - are the exceptions to the rule. They get something they do not deserve, which is the righteousness of God. We can truly say that we love Him because He first loved us.

 

Brother Aki,


I might also add that just because a doctrine is draw from implication's from scirpture not explicit statement DOESNT necessarly mean it is false. Case in point, im sure you believe in the doctrine of the trinity even though it can only be proved by implication not explicit statements from the scripture. Take care,

Brother Joe

 

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God said (surely) die. Meaning "bound to happen". We have the tools to only choose good, yet EVERYONE of us has sinned (except Jesus Christ), and are ACCOUNTABLE on our OWN. We don't need Adam to blame for OUR sin. As his decendents we have the knowledge of good and evil and like God said, we will surely die. The bible proves this fact that all have sinned and therefore will die. Romans 3 : [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Perhaps all the babies that die before birth for one reason or another are saved simply because they have not had a chance to do good or evil?? (I don't know for sure though)

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Interesting that God said "he has become like one of us" Think about that for awhile. I don't think God is being sarcastic here. I think He is serious. If we are become "like one of us" we are most CERTAINLY responsible for what we do in regards to good and evil. We are most certainly UNABLE to save ourselves, even with choice. Adam had a choice and he blew it, just like me, just like everyone else. GLORY TO GOD FOR FREE GRACE. ALL the glory to God.

 

Aki said:

 

Aki said:

 

You may think this is a technicality, but it is not. They are not made vessels of wrath. They are born vessels of wrath.

But I still get your point. They didn't choose to be born vessels of wrath, therefore you think they are "victims" because they may be punished for being born wicked even though they did not choose to be born wicked.

Here's the problem. You are approaching this issue with the presumption that it matters if we choose to be born one way or another. It may matter from your (man's) perspective, but look at it from God's perspective. A wicked man deserves a wicked man's wages (death) and it doesn't matter how that man got wicked.

Choice doesn't matter on the other side, either. Vessels of wrath did not choose to be born vessels of wrath. But the elect don't choose to be born from above as vessels of mercy, either.

So if you want to say it's "unfair", then fine, but your argument is with God, not me. And from man's perspective it's unfair at both ends: The non-elect are being punished even though they didn't choose to be born depraved. The elect are being blessed even though they didn't choose to be born from above.

If that's okay with God, it's okay with me. And given the mountain of scripture that describes that this is exactly how it works, it is certainly okay with God.

 

I can go this far from the Bible: That we are imputed with Adam's sin because Adam died spiritually. Once he was spiritually dead, all his offspring would naturally be spiritually dead, as well. A spiritually dead being produces more spiritually dead beings.

I think we can safely assume that God created Adam knowing perfectly well that Adam would die spiritually, and therefore create untold generations of spiritually dead people.

You ask, "For what purpose?" I cannot tell you with absolute confidence from the Bible what God's purpose was. I can only speculate.

Here is my speculation - but please take it only as speculation, not Calvinistic doctrine nor Biblical doctrine. This is only my personal viewpoint, though it's possible some others may share it.

My speculation on God's purpose is that He wanted to create a people to whom He could make his ENTIRE character known, including His righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, wrath, etc.

Now, the problem is, you can't display mercy or wrath without having objects of wrath. You can't have mercy on a righteous person, for example, because he doesn't need it. And you can't display wrath on righteous people because they don't deserve it. So the only way for God to make these parts of His character known is to make sure that objects of wrath exist.

So (again, this is purely speculation), God created Adam knowing exactly what the consequences would be, because even though Adam chose to disobey of his own will, they were the desired consequences. Once the human race was cursed due to Adam's sin, He had already planned to have mercy on those He foreknew -- the elect -- and display His wrath against the non-elect, thus making both His mercy and wrath known (along with his other characteristics).

 

Southern,

You said, 'To say that God has decided to give eternal life to just 1 person would be an
amazing thing considering the fact that He could have just left us justly
condemned like the fallen angels.'

Ray: For one thing, not all angels are fallen. Think of it; God loves each Christian enough to give us at least one. [Ps. 34:7]

God allowed the angels the latitude so they could either obey the Lord or displease Him.

You said, 'I would disagree with the interpretation that you put on the two verses that
you quoted from 2 Peter and I Timothy

Ray: Let's hear your interpretation of those verses. My guess is that you would rather ignore them because the exegesis would be poor.

You said, ' but it does leave me with a question. I would just like to see your opinion on an idea. If God would have just let man have what he justly deserved, would that have made God un-"mercifull" in your opinion?'

Ray: The question is hypothetical. God could have damned all of us sinners but He chose to pay the atonement for all of us. [I Tim. 2:6; I John 2:2; II Peter 3:9]

The Lord God is good and He therefore has had mercy on all sinners. [Romans 11:31-32]
(Let me just say that the fact of God "electing" to salvation His elect is a
great thing considering the fact that none believe but those who are elected.
If it were not for election, no one would believe.)