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Featured DGOETTP part two

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Feb 28, 2022.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    and if on the Father ye do call, who without acceptance of persons is judging according to the work of each, in fear the time of your sojourn pass ye, having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God. 1 Peter 1:17-21

    and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, First part of Heb 2:9

    Heb 2:6 first part of 7 and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, 'What is man, (?Adam?) that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, ---- ? Gen 2:7?

    What is it to be equal and or like, the angels (messengers)?
    Luke 20:36 for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising

    Why did God make Adam some less than the angels? Before the foundation of the world, was Jesus the Son of the Living God going to be made (brought forth by virgin woman) some little less than the angels?

    Who, was and is, the primary target? ----- Consider-- Rom 16:20 and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly (in quickness/swiftness - ἐν τάχει); the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen!

    Was it ordained by God that Adam would sin?
     
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    NO!... Then that would make God the cause of Adams sin... I have been watching the other discussion and to me if Adam sinned when God told him not to, then God must be blamed for Adams sin... But instead of giving you my opinion lets go to scripture, for the answer... Don't worry I have thick skin and I know what has gone on before and I agree with timtofly on post #279 and I will borrow what Austin said on post #280... So who is the evil tempter?... This Christian blames, Adam, who, through his wife Eve, listened to Satan!... Brother Glen:)

    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
     
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  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    To be made a little lower in than the angels means man was made a little lower in rank.

    The Cross was always the reason for Creation. So, though God cannot be charged with evil, it was part of His plan that sin should enter into the world.
     
  4. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The first we agree on?

    I barely got to the halfway point when it was locked.

    You have the right idea, but to add to that, more from Romans 5:

    "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

    God did not ordain nor decree sin. Only as creator is God an originator or author of sin, because sin was the resulting experience of Adam's disobedience. In fact Adam's disobedience was not sin. Adam did disobey one law and one law only. But until that first law was disobeyed, sin was not in the world. In fact Adam and Eve had to leave Paradise, so they could "enjoy" their new found experience of sin. Sin was now in the world, but not in Paradise.

    So sin did not even enter the Garden. What entered was death. Because Adam indeed physically died. He went from a permanent incorruptible physical body to a sin nature corruptible physical body. The dead body was what cannot enter Paradise.

    Also sin is only imputed if a law exists. But not in Adam's case:

    "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

    So only Adam could disobey without sin in the world. Now Adam's offspring could only sin, because they have Adam's dead flesh, sin nature. But sin can only be imputed if there is a law to break. Cain did not break a law in killing Abel. God never specifically said what Cain could or could not do. But that is a different issue, even though related. Cain could not remain in God's presence (Paradise). Cain was not killed, and did not even die, like Adam and Eve were.

    So God knew the result of Adam's choice, and even knew when it would happen.

    James is only dealing with a post Cross point of view. Eve was tempted, not Adam. Even if Adam had no knowledge of sin and death. Adam has knowledge of obedience and free will choice, even if he did not have a doctrinal statement to live by. Scripture never claims Adam was ever enticed by Satan’s pro stance of new knowledge gained. I doubt Eve experienced anything after she ate. She was not given the command, Adam was.

    Either way it is speculation to claim Adam disobeyed if he felt sorry for Eve, or if he was curious that she gained nothing nor changed in any way. All we have is:

    "she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

    It never says what happened to Eve after she ate. We only move to the next verse after Adam ate. Paul says Adam brought sin into the world. Paul did not say Eve brought sin into the world.

    We are not even told how long they enjoyed each other's company prior to Adam eating in disobedience to God. I don't see any where that Adam was tempted one way or the other.

    "And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."

    Nothing to work with whatsoever unless we start speculating.

    But to the main point of why free will is not responsible for sin, and neither is God, by reason of decree. It was not decreed, but left to Adam's free will. Adam had free will and was the keeper of the tree that would cause sin to enter, if Adam ate. But Adam had no knowledge of sin. Adam only obeyed God to avoid death, and Adam probably had no clue what death was. Not even Satan knew. I am sure that "death" was the driving factor in Satan's reasoning to even tempt Eve. Satan wanted to know what death was, and would not stop until he had solved that mystery. Obviously Satan knew what rebellion and disobedience was, but this death sentence given to Adam was driving him crazy to figure out.

    So if you want a first cause it would be Satan's desire to know what death is. Because even James is spot on that the end is always death. But until Satan could get Adam to eat, no one knew what death was. Except of course God. But James was writing after he already knew what death was. Not only did God place this knowledge under Adam's direct care, but God gave Satan the ability to think and reason and test the boundary law of God's creation. Satan was free to convince any and all creation to question God. Still not a decree, nor ordinanation. God did not need creation to test creation. Yet at the same time God did create into the fabric of creation such test, that would allow evil.

    The only logical conclusion is that God is a scientist. God did create us in His image. Satan was the test subject #1 who would be the central point of the son's of God scientific observations. Yet in our sinful condition it seems Satan is the observer and we are his test subjects. Satan had a lot of time and a lot of time to think without acting. Now he is at the point of too much activity and no thinking.
     
  5. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that verse means we were created at a lower rank than the angels.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Well, if it is reference to nature, that's a bit more than a 'little' lower.
     
  7. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The Psalm does have the word ordained in it, but only the angels were ordained in this passage. Yes the surface of the earth is a little lower than the firmament.

    "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars/angels, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"

    Now some of this was attributed to Christ the Prince, but the sons of God were created on the 6th day. While the angels are under the direct ordinanation of God and under God's authority, all creation was made subject to the sons of God.

    Right now on earth we are subject to our sin nature and Adam's dead flesh. 1 John 3:2

    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    There was law: Genesis 2:17

    As to the rest, no God is not the author of sin.

    Adam was made good, and would live forever if obedient, but he was not made incorruptible or immortal. If God suffered violence in the Garden, Adam could have been killed. But there was a liar in the Garden, and Adam was corrupted, and brought forth evil fruit, disobedience.
     
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You're a little confused and seem to be a bit superstitious. Man, that is Adam and Eve, was made on the 6th day. Not sure if you're referencing angels or the nephilim with term 'sons of God.' Neither are applicable.

    Angels are spirits. Created, yes, but Genesis is not the narrative of their creation.
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The Reformed WCF

    Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory

    Regardless of all the arguments and excuses made by the "reformed" on BB, this language says that God IS The author of sin, and that He was PLEASED to allow Adam and Eve to sin, and, that He actually PLANNED to ORDER their sin, for His GLORY!!!

    This is the HIGHEST BLASPHEMY, and is from the devil himself! :Mad

    James 1:13

    Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one

    God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone with evil, as He is HOLY.

    HOW then can This HOLY God PLAN and ORDER the fall of humans???

    it is ANATHEMA!
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Careful there. If, as you say, the Holy Ghost is indeed YHWH, then you might be blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You might want to take a step back there.

    No one said God tempted them. They were tempted of the Devil. They didn't prevail. Christ did. That no more makes God the author of sin than His sending a lying spirit to the false prophets makes God a liar.
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    God did NOT send any lying spirit, He ALLOWED the lying spirit to deceive Ahab!
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    1Kings 22:22-23 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    it is AS IF the Lord had done it, because He ALLOWED this to take place. God cannot cause anyone to sin!
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Sorry, the spirit was commanded to go and do so. You gotta stop reading your own notions into the text.
     
  16. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    The original thread was about the concern non-Calvinists have over the concept that if God determines everything that happens down to the smallest detail, does that not make God responsible for sin? We got into a lot of wrangling over the meaning of "ordain". Having gotten nowhere with that, it seems that it would be appropriate to at this point begin to argue about the word "pleased".

    "Pleased" in the old English usage can mean that it was someone's decision to allow something to proceed. It does not mean always that it gave pleasure. If I wanted to open a Baptist church in Midsomer I might say to the king, "If it please the king, I would like to open a church in Midsomer". If the king allowed it, it does not mean that the king liked the idea, just that I could proceed.

    But in all seriousness, SBG raises a valid point. After all the discussion of sovereignty, the meaning of "ordain", and "pleased" is over we have a couple of truths.
    1. Adam DID sin and the Fall did occur.
    2. God knew it was going to happen and let it
    happen.
    Now, as Christians, we would be perfectly right, and it probably would be the best course just to accept those facts and let God be God. We don't have to speculate at all. However, the WCF did try to explain these things in chapters 3 through 6. And because of the wording and because of the way some Calvinists try to explain certain events, crimes and so on, the question comes up about whether God is the author of evil.

    I personally believe that the key phrase in that document is "according to the most wise and holy counsel of his own will". I think if you take a few minutes and read those three chapters carefully, and with an open mind you will realize that it is a good explanation for the way things are. But it's not inspired so if you really don't like the way it's written then look elsewhere. But if you find something please post it because I have not come across anything better and would like to be informed. I need to see more than rubbish in capital letters though.
     
  17. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    and if also our good news is vailed, in those perishing it is vailed, in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; for not ourselves do we preach, but Christ Jesus -- Lord, and ourselves your servants because of Jesus; because, God who said, Out of darkness, light to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:3-6
    put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world (Kosmos)-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; Eph 6:11,12
    to open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the authority of the Adversary (Satan) unto God, for their receiving forgiveness of sins, and a lot among those having been sanctified, by faith that, toward me. Acts 26:18

    he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8
    afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death. James 1:15

    When did the devil sin and did it result is death (Whatever death means)? Did, the sin of the devil, result in the power of the death which scripture states the has the power thereof? Heb 2:14

    Gen 1:2-5 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness, on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. And God seeth the light, that good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness, and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one.

    What is God about to do about, darkness, night, the sinner from the beginning, the devil? Is God about to deal with the sin of the devil? How exactly is God going to deal with the sin of the devil? How exactly is God going to destroy the devil and his works? What is it going to take for God to destroy the devil and his works?

    the god of this age
    the darkness of this age

    And Jesus answering said to them, 'The sons of this age do marry and are given in marriage,

    What is God about to do?



    And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    'Known from the ages to God are all His works; Acts 15:18
     
  18. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    The knowledge of good and evil must be relative. I'll have to ponder and pray about it.
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Did God order or ordain the murder of 6 million Jews during WW2?
     
  20. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    this is horrific just thinking about it

    It was not part of Gods plan that sin should enter. But he KNEW it would enter. and the cross was Gods response to it..
     
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