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Featured Did Adam die spiritually when he sinned?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Mar 28, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    On another thread this became a topic of discussion.

    God created man and then planted a garden towards the East, in Eden. God put man in this garden.

    Genesis 2:16–17 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

    Adam disobeyed God, transgressing that command.

    Scripture tells us what occurred to Adam because of this transgression:

    Genesis 3:17–19 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
    Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
    And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face you will eat bread,
    Till you return to the ground,
    Because from it you were taken;
    For you are dust, and to dust you shall return
    .”

    Scripture tells us what happened to Adam as well:

    Genesis 3:22–23 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

    So where does the idea, since it is not in the Bible and contradicts passages about spiritual life, come from that Adam was created spiritually alive and died spiritually?
     
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  2. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    @JonC . I'm not sure but I remembered this clip from the late R.C. where he seems to indicate that God out of mercy did not do what He had threatened. I know Sproul was answering off the cuff here but here's the clip:
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Interesting. I like that Sproul doesn't get mislead into some strange alternate death theory. And I like his point that Adam's consequence to work the land until he died isn't too severe given the sin.

    I disagree with his conclusion that God postponed Adam's death out of grace (and, I suppose, God's purpose).

    The reason I disagree is that this could shed doubt on God's declaration (granted, there is a passage speaking of God relenting and allowing one to live, so I wouldn't dismiss Sproul's interpretation quickly).

    Since the language does not declare that Adam would die on the day he ate of the fruit, I see no reason to explore further than what God pronounced happened because of Adam's sin. But Sproul's interpretation is certainly valid.

    My point is we don't have to wonder what occurred because God tells us. Adam would work the land and return to dust (the ground would require labor to yield fruit and Adam would physically die).

    The problem with adopting a Catholic myth (or any other myth) to accompany Scripture is doing so changes the meaning of the passage and can lead to problems down the road with other doctrines.
     
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  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12.

    In Adam all have sinned and every man is dead in trespasses and sins, until quickened.

    "Dead", then, in what way? that they must be Given Life and Quickened, by God?

    Was Adam subject to Eternal death, as the result of his sin?, as well as, all his posterity?

    Spiritual Life Inherits Eternal Life.

    Spiritual death does not.

    "the curse of the law is no other than the sanction of it, death; and..., is death corporal, spiritual or moral, and eternal;" Gill, below.

    I've seen a lot of other efforts trying to make "dead" have the meaning of "alive".

    I put them all on "Ignore", since they accordingly, haven't had a nickel's worth to say in six months, anyway.

    How could they? The don't even know the basic tenant of why a soul needs Salvation.


    Are we sure we want to reveal the evidence of our Depravity by claiming to deny the Spiritual death and Depravity, resulting from Adam's fall, and it's imputation to all his posterity, as an astonishing lack of discernment, on this?

    Please, don't tell me Spiritual death has to be specifically listed, for it to be Bible truth.

    From Gill:


    "...the mischiefs that personally accrued to him, are not so manifest; but appear more clearly in his posterity.

    "However, there are so many things said, and hints given, as may lead us plainly to observe some of the sad effects of this sin.

    "3a. A loss of original righteousness followed upon it. God made man upright; but sinning, he lost the uprightness and rectitude of his nature; or the righteousness in which he was created; so that he because unrighteous, nay, full of all unrighteousness; hence it is that there is none of his posterity righteous, no not one...

    "3b. Guilt on the consciences of our first parents presently appeared, and that in an endeavour to hide them selves from the presence of God among the trees of the garden. Guilt is the consequence of sin in all men; the whole world of Adam's posterity is guilty before God; and this is sometimes intolerable, and nothing can remove it but the blood of Christ...

    "3c. Loss and want of knowledge and understanding were soon perceived in him. The last instance, of hiding himself, betrays his ignorance and folly; as if the trees in the garden could secure him from the sight and vengeance of the Almighty; instead of gaining the knowledge he unlawfully sought after, he lost much of what he had; hence he is ironically and sarcastically upbraided with it; "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil!" and his posterity are represented as foolish, ignorant, and devoid of understanding; "There is none that understands", Romans 3:11.

    "Though they may understand natural things and civil things, and somewhat of moral things, though not clearly and distinctly, at least so as to do them; to do good they have no knowledge: but they understand not spiritual things, the things of the Spirit of God, which they neither receive nor know, because they are spiritually discerned.

    "They know not God, so as to glorify him; and much less as in Christ: they know not Christ, nor the way of peace, life, and salvation by him: they know not the Spirit of God, his person, office, and operations; yea, men are as stupid as the beasts of the field, and in some things more so; man is born like a wild ass's colt, and is more ignorant, and less knowing, than the ox and ass, which know their owner; and than birds of passage, which know the time of their coming and going, when men know not the Lord and his judgments, #Job 11:12 Isa 1:3 Jer 8:6, 7.

    3d. Our first parents, upon their sinning, were immediately obnoxious to the curse of the law, and it was pronounced on them, along with the serpent; though it is expressed as if it only concerned the body, and temporal things; in which strain run the several curses of the law afterwards; "Cursed shalt thou be in the city", &c. #Ge 3:16-19 De 28:15,18 yet they extend further, even to the wrath of God on the soul, both here and hereafter; for the curse of the law is no other than the sanction of it, death; and which, as has been seen, is death corporal, spiritual or moral, and eternal;

    "Adam, upon sinning, was at once stripped of the immortality of his body, which God had bestowed on it, and became mortal, subject to diseases, and a corporal death, and so all his posterity; "In Adam all die"; and a spiritual or moral death seized on all the powers and faculties of his soul; his understanding darkened; his mind and conscience defiled; his affections inordinate; his will biassed to that which is evil, and to every good work lifeless and reprobate, until restored by the grace of God; as every man is dead in trespasses and sins, until quickened.

    "And eternal death is the just wages of sin, which is no other than the wrath of God revealed against all unrighteousness, and which comes upon the children of disobedience: and there are none of the sons of Adam but as such, and in themselves, are obnoxious to it; even God's elect are "by nature children of wrath as others", #Eph 2:3.

    This is the grand curse, the flying roll in Zechariah's vision, that goes over the face of the whole earth, and cuts off the sinner on this and the other side; and which the wicked will hear at last denounced on them, "Go, ye cursed!" But the righteous will be saved from it, because Christ has redeemed them from the curse of the law, and delivered them from wrath to come."
     
    #4 Alan Gross, Mar 29, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The question is not being spiritually dead. Natural man is flesh, not spirit. We are all by nature spiritually dead.

    The question is if spiritual life can be lost (if a person, specifically Adam here, can die spiritually).

    Every indication that I have read from Scripture indicates that spiritual life is not temporary.
     
  6. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The answer to this question is simple. Define "life and death" biblically as God defines it and there is no mystery.

    Here is one definition for death;

    Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    These dead that are being judged did not come from the presence of God, the definition of life, but from hell (soul) and the grave (body) where they had been kept, and cast into the only place in creation that the omnipresent God has chosen not to be, the lake of fire. So Adam was in the presence of God in the Garden where God was before he sinned and was cast out of the garden after he sinned, for the obvious reason that he did not possess life any longer and could not dwell with him until and unless the problem is fixed. That is what the six thousand years of Adamic history in time is all about and for whoever has read the last two chapters in the scriptures and believes it, the problem is fixed and men have the glorious privilege once again of entering into paradise where God is and eating of the tree of life.

    Do not miss the similitudes of Scripture. The problem gets fixed in time and through Jesus Christ, God's own Son, and mine and your savior from our sins, if we receive him. God gets rid of the sin problem by getting rid of the sinner.

    Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    A man has two births or two deaths and he chooses which it will be.

    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. (this is the church of Jesus Christ that God the Father is forming in this age)
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
    14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
    15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
    16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
    17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
    18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
    19 And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
    20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
    21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
    22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is the light thereof.
    24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
    1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
    5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
    6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
    7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
     
    #6 JD731, Mar 29, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are a couple of issues.

    First, if we take Adam being expelled from the Garden as a death then we can't say he had this life until God put him in the Garden. So by that reasoning, Adam was created dead, became alive when God put him in the Garden, and died again when he was kicked out. That is a bit too convoluted to seriously consider.

    Second, God tells us it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment, Hell being a corporate "second death".

    Third, and more importantly, God tells us sin brought Adam a physical death (Adam would return to dust). Nowhere does God mention another type of death when declaring Adam's fate for sinning. God tells him he would have to work the land and would return to the dust from which he was made. If Adam was to die spiritually it is odd God would leave that out.
     
  8. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I do not know how you men read what the scriptures say and what is the basis for you reasoning and logic. If I did not have any other chapter in the Bible than Romans 8, I would at least think that having the indwelling Spirit of God and Christ in my body gives me the presence of God and eternal life, because he is life, according to the texts I am reading. This can only mean one thing; I was dead before receiving the Spirit. I had a soul already, the spiritual part of man, myself. It, my soul, gives life to my body, which gives me physical and earthly cognizance.
    Now, there is a reason God requires I have his Spirit, which is himself, in my body. He calls it a birth. A birth is a brand new beginning. Paul calls a man who receives the Spirit of God "a new creature" in 2 Cor 5:17, among other places. Something new was not in existence before.

    So, I know this; if God is so interested in living in a man, that he would send his only begotten Son into the world as a man, but not just a man like us, but the last Adam, the second man (simulating the born again man, the second birth) as the only solution to the sin problem that we all received from Adam, of being in his image, a two part man, soul and body. The Bible tells me that Jesus Christ, the Son of God through a virgin birth, was THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD. He was not in the image of Adam. God is a trinity, Father Son and Holy Ghost. Everything God touches has this signature on it. Why would he create man without this signature? The fact is he did not. But through his soul man has is self aware. He was not a little God because he was a trinity. When he became a god he had lost the trinitarian image.

    Here is the deal. In Romans 8, God says that those who have his Spirit are quickened. That means they are made alive. When they are quickened by the Spirit of God and of Christ, they become "sons of God." To become a son there must be a birth. If we were already sons of God this whole chapter would make no sense. If there were some other way to become a son of God this chapter would make no sense. No, the only way to become a son of God is to be birthed by receiving the Spirit of God and of Christ.

    Now, I am just just going to give you two things that is said about Jesus Christ at this time;

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    What was in him? Life was in him. How is that life defined? He has a body, a soul, and he has the Spirit of God in him, Not like we today who are born of his Spirit because we have the "earnest" of the Spirit, but he had the fullness of the Spirit;

    Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    This is the Spirit that was poured out on all the earth in abundance like rain water on Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2 and Acts 10.so that all may freely drink and live.

    There are only two men who are called sons of God before the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ, which he poured out to wash away our sins, Adam (Lk 3:38) and Jesus Christ (Jn 3:16).

    There are only two times God breathed the Spirit of life into men. The first was in Adam and next it was the disciples in John 20.

    Jn 20: 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    The operative word here is "living."

    1 Jn 1:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    Everything in the OT was preparation for the work of the New Testament in Christ.

    Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead (the Spirit of God the Father GA 1;1) dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 Which (the Holy Ghost) he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    May the Lord Jesus be exalted high and may we praise him for what he has done for us.Amen!
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    This may seem like a rather simplistic answer but if Christ Jesus tells us we must be "born again" as He did in John 3:3 & John 3:7 would that not tell us we were considered to be dead spiritually or separated from God. Further we know that it is the breaking of the commandments of God that is considered sin and sin has a consequence, separation from God. So the consequence of Adams sin would be separation form God.

    So the question is what is this separation from God? Is it physical, of course. But it cannot just be physical. So the spiritual separation/death of Adam is a logical conclusion we can draw from scripture. Just as we can conclude that we are spiritually dead in our sins. Ephesians 2:1
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm not exactly sure that we are having the same conversation.

    I am saying that spiritual life is not temporary, that this life is Christ.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe that we are separated, in a sense, by sin. At the same time I have to acknowledge that Cain was driven out from the presence of God as a result of killing Able. And, of course, the high priest went into the presence of God on behalf of Israel.

    So I agree that we are spiritually dead, and that sin separates us from a level of fellowship with God.

    But my point is the Bible never indicates one can die spiritually. We are spiritually dead and in need of being born of the Spirit because we are flesh and flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.
     
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  12. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    It was for Adam. No one else until Christ had spiritual life. I think we probably don't have the same definition for spiritual life and death
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We may have different definitions of "spiritual life" - good point

    I define "spiritual life" as having the spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), a mind set on the Spirit rather than the flesh (Romans 8:6). Obviously Adam's mind was set on the flesh (or he wouldn't have sinned).

    How do you define spiritual life?
     
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree that is why I said it is a logical construct. It would be hard to come up with another view that would actually account for the actions we see in Genesis between God and Adam.
     
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  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I liked this post and IMHO Dying Adam died and is still dead as is everyone else who has ever lived except the only one who had no sin but was made sin and died for our justification, therefore he and him alone was raised out of the dead because of our justification. God excepting his death in our stead therefore we have 1 Cor 15:20-22 YLT And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

    HOW#EVER

    V 23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

    AND

    V 25's 25,26 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death;

    WHY - IMHO because of

    Hebrews 2: 6-14 and 1 John 3:8 in order to destroy the devil and his works who was at work before the first man Adam the figure of the Son of Man to come, was created.
     
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Another post I liked. Sin separarted mankind from God. Thus: Romans 5:10 YLT for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life. [IMHO His resurrected life. See my other post.]
     
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  17. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Spiritual life IMHO would be life without end. Now this is stated concerning those to whom the Holy Spirit has been richly poured upon;

    Titus 3:7 NKJV that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Heirs to inherit or inheritors? Hope? Is this the same hope spoken of in Romans 8:24,25 YLT for in [to] hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for? and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect.
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Spiritual Life earned by Jesus is, of course, Eternal.

    The breath of life received directly from God was contingent on Adam keeping the Law God gave him.

    I am going to say that Adam died spiritually and morally, whereas, he had been Alive Spiritually to God, as Innocent and Righteous within himself, he also became dead, then Spiritually, in trespasses and in sin.

    Commentary by Gill:

    "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;"

    "which in that way entered into his body, and quickened it, which before was a lifeless lump of clay, though beautifully shapen: it is in the plural number, the "breath of lives" F12"

    Man's soul was then "immaterial and immortal:

    "and man became a living soul;

    or a living man, not only capable of performing the functions of the animal life, of eating, drinking, walking but of thinking, reasoning, and discoursing as a rational creature."

    17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

    " for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die;

    "or "in dying, die" F26; which denotes the certainty of it, as our version expresses it;

    "and may have regard to more deaths than one;

    "not only a corporeal one, which in some sense immediately took place, man became at once a mortal creature, who otherwise continuing in a state of innocence, and by eating of the tree of life, he was allowed to do, would have lived an immortal life;

    "of the eating of which tree, by sinning he was debarred, his natural life not now to be continued long, at least not for ever;

    "he was immediately arraigned, tried, and condemned to death, was found guilty of it, and became obnoxious to it, and death at once began to work in him;

    "sin sowed the seeds of it in his body, and a train of miseries, afflictions, and diseases, began to appear, which at length issued in death.

    "Moreover, a spiritual or moral death immediately ensued; he lost his original righteousness, in which he was created; the image of God in him was deformed; the powers and faculties of his soul were corrupted, and he became dead in sins and trespasses;

    "the consequence of which, had it not been for the interposition of a surety and Saviour, who engaged to make satisfaction to law and justice, must have been eternal death, or an everlasting separation from God, to him and all his posterity;

    "for the wages of sin is death, even death eternal, ( Romans 6:23 ) .

    "So the Jews F1 interpret this of death, both in this world and in the world to come."

    Right.

    Eternal Life acquired by Jesus Christ is Eternal.

    I wonder what a "level of fellowship with God" means, for the spiritually dead...

    Eternal Life in Jesus is Eternal.

    If it is that Spiritual Life earned by Jesus, yes.
     
  19. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Our understanding of God and our present reality must begin in the context of Adam and creation because that is where God started. I have read the whole Bible where much more revelation is given and I have made some conclusions based upon what I have read. One interesting thing that God has said is here.

    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    From that I understand that what God says in his book is reasonable and logical and so that is the way I approach all of it. I approach it as if God is trying to make sense of what he says and that I should also.

    I know from reading the scriptures that God wanted to live in Adam, whom he had created, and he did. That is not far fetched. Jesus Christ said if we would have life he must be inside of our bodies, because he said "I am the way, the truth, and THE LIFE. He said that he that hath (present tense) the Son hath LIFE. He said "this LIFE" (eternal life) is in his Son. Jesus Christ said in Jn 6 that a man must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life. The point according to the context was he cannot help if he is on the outside, he must be in the body to give life.

    Now I must begin my reasoning abilities because I know that Jesus when he said that was a physical man, probably 6 ft tall and weighing in about 175 or so lbs. Then I read that he was put to death, but he was resurrected in a physical, yet glorified body in which he ascended to heaven to sit on the right hand of the Father on his heavenly throne where he remains to this very day.

    This made me wonder then how Jesus Christ can dwell in my body. He is nearly as big as me, and he is in heaven. How can this be? Well, it must be because God surely put this verse into the record at least 90 years after Jesus Christ had ascended to heaven. Read it for yourself.

    1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    1Jo 5:6 This is he that came (to the world) by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. (Remember Jn 1:5 - in him, in his body, was LIFE = the Spirit of God)

    The water is the similitude of the Spirit of God and the life of the flesh is in the blood, God says somewhere else. So, Jesus Christ was connected in life to God and to man by the Spirit (God) and the blood (body = man).

    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    [ Jn 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.]


    The divine trinity
    1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    The divine Man
    1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (Spirit, soul, body of Jesus Christ)
    He is divine and he is human.

    (Spirit, water, and blood are all life giving agents.

    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    Now, concerning Adam, one must reason out the life that God gave Adam in the garden. When did Jesus Christ become life. What does it mean that Adam died in the day he ate the forbidden fruit? What exactly happened to Adam when he died? What does it mean when we are told he lived 930 years and he died? Well, it takes some reasoning together with God and the application of some logic and some belief of the truth, which are the words of God, to understand these things.

    I would like to make some of my personal thoughts about what happened in the garden with Adam in my next post. Now I have a doc appt.
     
    #19 JD731, Mar 30, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree about there being two types of spiritual lives. That exceeds what is written in God's Word (it doesn't necessarily mean you are incorrect).

    By level of fellowship I mean things like that relationship with God Cain had before being driven from the presence of God as a result for killing Able.

    Sin is a barrier. Yet at the same time Adam and Eve had a relationship with God after they ate of the fruit. They were cast from the Garden, yet not from God's presence (the first example of a man being cast from God's presence is Cain).
     
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