Did Christ atone for unbelief?

Dale, you are side-stepping the question. Is faith required for salvation? If so, then the atonement is only part of the requirement. That's why the atonement was for all, but only those who excercise faith will be saved. It takes both. That is the way God chose to save.

 

You seem to be saying that one does not have to have faith.


Mar 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Jhn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He,] you will die in your sins."



How much clearer can it be?

 

...except pre-faith regeneration is a myth, and as the good Dr. says "...man's foolish definition mixed in with the specific meaning of a theological word."

 

Let's see--

Calvinists: Jesus death on the cross atoned for those whom he has chosen for salvation. They will, without fail, exercise saving faith, because God will give them that ability and desire.

Non-Calvinists: God has limited the application of the atonement to those who will exercise saving faith. Whosoever believes will be saved, but only those who believe.

Is it not true that under either theological view, the number of those who will be saved is exactly the same? Isn't it also true that there is no possibility that anyone else will be saved? And, that God, whatever your view of foreknowledge, knows which ones will and won't?

What then, is the purpose of Jesus' death on the cross for those to whom God knows he will never apply it? Why is it necessary that Jesus atone for the sins of anyone who God knows will never exercise saving faith?

 

Okay, Dr. Bob, let me see if I'm understanding your last post correctly.

Man had to do (sin, disobey)something in order to lose that perfect relationship Adam had with God in the beginning, but we don't have to do (believe) anything in order to regain it. God is just going to hand out salvation on a platter and then pick up the hands of those He chooses and wrap their fingers around it and even if they don't want it, they will want it cause He says so.

Man just has to sit back and wait to see if God has chosen him.

Really?

 

Here's the deal, Dale. :laugh:

Belief -- intellectual assent in our spirits -- is required in order to be saved BUT that belief must also be acted upon in order to save the soul. There are certain people who give intellectual assent to everything they hear from God but they believe in vain because they have not applied what they believe. Such were some members of Sardis who "had a name the liveth but art dead." Rev 3:1

Therefore, Christ couldn't die for unbelief in the gospel. He couldn't die for the sin that makes you reject the only truth that can save you.

skypair

 

You claim God gives the “special” ability to repent/believe. Please, define man’s “special ability”. I would like to factor this in with how responsibility does not logically fall on God.

You claim man can do nothing good, evidenced by Is 64:6, (in disregard to the whole counsel of the Word declaring the nature of God’s judgment in Deut 32:4.) and can not want, wish, or will in any way. Still looking for this “special ability” to believe, and now I am also looking for how God righteously judges those He has not predetermined to respond in belief?

You claim God’s predetermined salvation comes first, still in disregard of God’s just judgment (Deut 32:4) and also claim that only (after being made capable) we are capable to respond. (In other words: the salvation response is by only cause and effect in both instances)

Further, you attempt to substantiate this claim that if a person does not repent it is evidenced that they do not have this (mystical?) unseen work of (“special ability”) again claiming the HS is that which “MAKES” THEM RESPOND.

Conclusion: First, man’s response is predetermined (for pre-salvation) and is by a cause and effect response originated by God. Second, man’s response is predetermined (for after salvation) (must still be all of the Lord) and is by a cause and effect response, evidenced by (and a continuance of pre-salvation determinism) both of which are caused by the “unseen work” (mystical) work of the HS and originated by the Lord.

Question: According to your view of God’s determining factors; EXACTLY, when does any response -(ability) fall on man for God’s righteous judgment on him??? (Deut 32:4)

Again, WHEN are WE the “responders” in faith, or for that matter, love?

If response is the inward, predetermined working of the Spirit, HOW is “OUR” faith a part? Again, WHEN is faith a response of man and not “cause and effect” response originated by God?

So far, ALL I am seeing is the Determinist’ heresy which can only logically make God responsible for man's unbelief, sin.

 

This is a false dilemma fallacy, which begs the question, and then misplaces the burden of proof. Totally fallacious reasoning.

False dilemma: Limiting the considerations to only two alternatives. (God’s foreknowledge must mean that an exact number of people will be pre-determinately saved, or God does not have foreknowledge.)

Begging the question: Asking your audience to accept the aforementioned premises which are as controversial as the conclusion you are arguing for and are controversial on the same grounds. (Concluding that your fallacy is true on foreknowledge and then applying that as Christ must have “only” died for those whom God predetermined through foreknowledge to exercise faith. This is a fallacy of circular reasoning.)

Burden of proof: Your initial plausibility rests on your claim coinciding with your presumption that previous background information is true. (So, after presenting a false dilemma and begging your own question you ask others to present evidence for your fallacious claim to not be true.)


I'd like to help you, but I think I'm missing something here...Oh yeah... your logic.

 

For the record, did you do anything to reconcile your soul to God? I mean, Jesus and the cross were obviously out there. Did you even know the Christ atoned for your sin before you were "regenerated?"

For that matter, do you know when you were regenerated?

For that matter, are you going to answer my questions above or go through your normal "shuck and jive" routine? :laugh:

Sadly, John 3 doesn't mention "regeneration." It only mentions what you think regeneration means. And the topics "born again" and "believe" may appear in the order you aver --- but that is hardly the ordo saludis given in the gospel. "Repent, and be baptized in the name if Jesus Christ and [THEN] receive the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

I will refer you to Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" and ask you what you think I DID other than obediently believing on Christ?

I assume by the tenor of your post that you are basically a "welfare queen" "bride of Christ." You just sit tight on your indolence and the "checks"/gifts just keep "rolling in," right? Do you not realize that the one who doesn't think he/she has to do anything for the reward usually doesn't do anything for God? Yet God says in the great "faith chapter," Heb 11:6, "for He that cometh to God must believe [there's that word again] that He is and that He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him." ("reward" - AKA "faith" and all that comes with it).

I suppose you are in luck now, though. "Messiah" is just about to be "elected" and he has all kinds of rewards for "welfare queens!" :laugh:

skypair

 

(Don't let any of the marbles fall out, Dale!!) :laugh:

What it means is that we can't lay hold of salvation if we reject the only means of salvation. Imagine you have been tossed overboard at sea. Christ throws you a life preserver. You don't grab it. Does that mean you couldn't have been saved? No. Your "sin" was not in not knowing what a life ring is nor in not knowing that you could be pulled out of sin. It was in not availing yourself of the ring.

skypair

 

Even the Devil/s believe and trembles. I don't think that is an issue though.

 

Take away Grace and what do you have left. Give me your imput on that.

 

I only have time to respond to one of your errors for now.The Bible (and Calvinists go by the BOOK) says that every person is responsible for their sins.They are fully accountable for all of their trespasses.God is not responsible for one's unbelief -- one's unbelief is fully on the head of the unbeliever.

So this bogus "Determinist heresy" is all a fiction you dreamed up.You're shooting blanks again.

 

It will be helpful to your critique if you will say what is false and fallacious and why it is so, instead of just declaring everything I said as wrong.

Did I mis-state the non-Calvinist position that God's election is based on foreseen faith? I, a Calvinist, certainly agree with non-Calvinists that God knows from the foundation of the world who will exercise saving faith--and who will not. Are you saying that this is not the case? Surely you are not saying that there are some folks out there who will exercise saving faith that God doesn't know about right now.

Are you saying that the number saved and to be saved is not already determined?

You've attacked my logic by suggesting that my presuppositions are false. If they are, then certainly my conclusions won't be consistent. Now, please, tell me where my presuppositions are wrong and where I have misrepresented either the Calvinist or non-Calvinist position on foreknowledge.

 

The only thing you responded to is my conclusion, with the negative and no substance, and offer nothing but rhetoric. Save me the circular reasoning, I have no interest in it.