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Did Christ die for everyone or just for the elect?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ron Arndt, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    now tell me how your verses in Eph 2 and Rom 4 are reconciled with James
     
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    perhaps you can tell me how your verses in James reconcile with those in Ephesians and Romans.
     
  3. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    There are two justifications. The first one is by faith alone. It says Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness.

    Genesis 15:5-6
    5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
    6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Then when Abraham was prepared to offer Isaac, he was justified by works.

    Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
    Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
    Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    He was given the additional blessing for his obedience (in blessing I will bless thee), he was already justified by faith and would not lose the promise that was already given him. But what did the Lord say? Now I know that you really believe? No he said this
    Genesis 22:12
    12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

    But the second justification can only be accomplished after having obtained the first by faith alone.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    The point being that just as 'all the world', or 'the whole world' in Scripture cannot always be understood to mean the entire geographical planet, so the word all cannot always be interpreted to mean all of mankind.

    How could 'the world', for example, how could the whole world mean the whole geographical planet in Luke 2:1 when the authority of Rome does not include the Far East, or the North Pole ?
    Obviously, to the writer, as well as for the men of that time, the term 'the whole world' meant to them everywhere the Roman Empire extends.

    Another example, in Acts 17:6, the gospel has not gone beyond the Roman Empire at this point, Paul and Silas were being hunted down, and failing to find them, the hunters took Jason and company instead, and said: These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also.
    What world was turned upside down ? The whole geographical planet ?

    So it is with 'all'.

    One cannot always interpret 'all' in Scriptures to mean the entire human race.

    verse 1 of 1 Timothy 2 has Paul saying that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, be made for all men. Did he mean 'all' mankind ?
    verse 2 gives the 'all men' in the context of the letter to mean not only brethren, but all in authority and the expected result which is a peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    So, one becomes elect depending on one's making sure of his calling and election ? Jesus is Savior only IF He is recognized and accepted as such by a lowly sinner, and until then, Jesus can call Himself Savior all He wants, but only in His dreams, so to speak ?

    Revelation 17:8 says:

    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Romans 3:29-30 says:

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

    I don't see any man making any move here.
     
  6. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Rather than making the analogy one of paying for a meal at a restaurant, I prefer the analogy of Jesus offering payment at a grocery store. The cashier tells everyone that a man is standing at aisle 7 and will pay for ALL who go to that aisle, no matter what they bring with them. All you have to do is go to the aisle and accept the payment He is offering for you.

    If you don't go to that aisle you will be required to pay for yourself.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Except that this analogy, and the meal analogy, forget the fact that Jesus knows all those who are His (John 10:27 says My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and that Jesus Himself said: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44).
    Yes, sir.
    Personally, I think this particular forum will probably be archived like the C/A forum, pretty soon.
     
  8. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    My analogy really doesn't negate Jesus knowing all that are His.

    I can't see how you would think that, pinoy.

    I do agree that this will probably be archived as its a pretty transparent attempt to revive the old C/A forum.
     
  9. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    So, one becomes elect depending on one's making sure of his calling and election ? Jesus is Savior only IF He is recognized and accepted as such by a lowly sinner, and until then, Jesus can call Himself Savior all He wants, but only in His dreams, so to speak ?

    Revelation 17:8 says:

    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Romans 3:29-30 says:

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

    I don't see any man making any move here.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 8:29-30
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Beautiful scripture. God's foreknowledge and predestination doesn't mean that you have no responsibility. You may fail of the grace of God and then you will find that you were not elect at all, were you.

    2 Peter 1:10-11
    10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    If election is always speaking of your eternal salvation, then you better get busy making sure you are saved. Or you could believe the Bible when it says that whosoever believes on Christ will be raised up on the last day, and rest in that, then go win the crown.
     
  10. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    What does the Bible say in the next verse?

    "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus..."

    Three things are true of the 'all' here:
    </font>
    • they all have sinned</font>
    • they all fall short of the glory of God</font>
    • they all are justified by his grace</font>
    So of course 'all' means 'all', but the interesting question is, who all is it of whom these three things are true - they have sinned AND fall short of the glory of God AND are justified by his grace?
     
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    But that's just what it is, James, with all due respect to what you believe. Full responsibility for the salvation, redemption, and justification of God's people rested entirely on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Salvation is of the Lord, none of man.
    One's responsibility begins in gospel obedience to gospel instruction.
    However, gospel obedience is a result OF salvation, and does not result in salvation.
    There's a world of difference there.
    Anyone who falls within hearing distance of the gospel preached, and within hearing distance of gospel instuction, is responsible for his conduct, having been given instruction and edification.
    IF he is a true child of God, then he will allow God to work in him to do and to will of His good pleasure, or he can grieve the Holy Spirit, and suffer chastisement.

    Since the subject in question is not election to a certain function within the economy of God, then I submit to you that the eternal salvation of the child of God began in eternity past before any star was ever created, when each elect child of God was placed in Christ the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, and remained in Christ, crucified and risen with Him here in time at the cross of Calvary and the tomb of resurrection.
    In Christ's words that is the Father's will, and He came not to do His own will but that of His Father.
    That is why it is grace and not of works, for if there is anything any sinning worm such as myself could dig up to point to (except the finished work of Christ and God's mercy) as my basis for being sure of my election, then I am a partner in the salvation which is purely and absolutely OF the Lord, it is no more just OF the Lord.
    Oh, yes, I absolutely believe the Bible when it says that.
    But the WHOSOEVER you speak of are the elect in Christ, because these are the only ones who will have gospel belief, and they will be raised at the last day not because they believe and obey, but because Christ died for them, and God demonstrated to them through the resurrection of His Son that such will be their end also.
    The unelect are not of the WHOSOEVER.
    An unelect may be born into a Christian home, be under the preaching of the gospel all of his life and still be damned because he has no Savior though he professes to have one.
     
  12. Vlad_IL

    Vlad_IL New Member
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    I would like you to also please confirm that the following verses mean the 'whole world', or 'all the world', meaning to include from the North Pole to the South Pole, from the West to the East, and not just the world as they knew it then.

    Luke 2:1 -

    And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

    Acts 11:28 -

    And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar

    Romans 1:8 -

    First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    (so, the chinese, and the africans, and the asians, and the japanese, and the pygmies, knew about the Roman Christians and their faith ?).

    1 Corinthians 10:11 -

    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Colossians 1:5-6

    For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
    Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

    If all men means genetically all men to you, then the world should mean the world, right ?
    </font>[/QUOTE]I recently had a debate with a Jehovah's Witness and he used similar argument to show that Jesus Christ is an angel.

    He went to the book of Job, where the Bible talks about the Sons of God coming before God and made a conclusion that since Jesus is the Son of God, He was one of those 'sons of God' spoken of in Job.

    True, as you showed sometimes the WORLD does not clearly mean the whole wide world as we know it.

    HOWEVER, I showed you Scriptures that clearly state that Christ died NOT only for the believers but for others as well. So to claim that Christ died only for the elect is to contradict the word of God.

    Lastly, when the Bible tells us that ALL have sinned, you have no problem with ALL meaning ALL People literally, do you?

    You just have a problem with Christ paying for ALL sins of the WHOLE world, and why is that? Why do you choose your theology over Scripture?
     
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    No disrespect to you in any way, bapmom. I merely wanted to point out that in those two analogies, the concept that the one paying the bill for those in the store simply put down a huge amount on the counter, and had no idea who will come to the counter to claim his part of the money.
    But Christ went up on that cross knowing full well the why's, wherefore's, and whofor's.

    Consider the following Scriptures:

    John 10:3-4

    To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
     
  14. cojosh

    cojosh New Member

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    The problem is that when people start discussing election/predestination they throw out the "will of man" altogether. The doctrine of election is a beautiful one but is one that receives much corrupting by man. The foundation is "God's fore-knowledge", He knows who will accept His salvation. We don't. He doesn't choose individuals because they are obedient or disobedient. He chose Christ. He chose the way of salvation. He chose the method by which He would redeem the lost. He chose His Son to become sin for the sakes of mankind. All of mankind.

    John 1:29- Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

    This is the first thing John(the Baptist) says when he sees Christ. He says it to the multittudes. If Christ only became sin for a certain few, and not all, then John and Jesus were both liars.

    2 Peter 3:9 -The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance.

    Is God a liar? It's no coincidence that this scripture mentions a promise. A promise is binding, something that is meant to be carried out. A liar doesn't care for promises. God doesn't want anyone do die without salvation, but most do. Why? Because the will of man is at work also. Men willfully reject God and His perfect salvation. If there was no such thing as the will of man, why would God be longsuffering. That makes no sense. That attribute would be empty if God did not expect individuals to do something during the time He was being longsuffering.


    We are to take joy in the fact that we are members of the "elect". We are to take joy in the fact that one day we heard the truth of God's salvation. We are to take joy in the fact that we realised that we were lost sinners. We should take joy in the fact that the Holy Spirit called us to repentance. We should take joy in the fact that we submitted to the Almighty God that has the power to rebirth us, and that is exactly what He did!
     
  15. lindell dunning1

    lindell dunning1 New Member

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    Just a couple questions. In Mark 1,verse 5,All Judea and Jerusalem went out to be baptized by John. So if All the people believed and were All baptized,then where did the opposition come from that crucified my Lord?
    In the analogy of the cashier declaring the Savior was in the store and giving out gifts,how were the corpses able to get themselves alive in order to waddle over and pick up their gifts?
     
  16. cojosh

    cojosh New Member

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    Mark 1:5 - And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

    Just because someone is baptized and confesses sin doesn't mean they have recieved Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. John was viewed by most as a phrophet. The Jews were very religious. They had been known to take part in all the rituals, feasts, sacrifices, etc. and then turn around and kill the phrophets. Some truly benefited from the work of John the Baptist. It paved the way for them to receive the Messiah, while others probably were just going through the motions. It isn't clear whether this verse is saying that people came from all parts of Judea or that everyone that lived in Judea came to John, it is clear that all who were in attendance got baptized. If all, were there then some must have been just "going through the motions", so to speak. It's just like today in our churches. When someone testifies that they have been saved, we don't know for certain that it's the truth. That's between them and God. Unfortunately, some are just "going through the motions". It is very possible that some of these that were baptized joined in as part of the opposition to Christ.
     
  17. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    After reading all these posts both pro and con I believe some are overlooking one important point. Did the death of Christ save anyone? Did Christ bear anyone's sins in his own body when he died?

    For those who say Christ died for the whole world or all men without exception this leads to a big problem. If Christ died for all men's sins in reality, then why are non believers in hell today? I'm not just referring to those who reject the gospel, but those who lived their lives as atheists and devout Muslims. Truly, millions have lived and died in that state for the last 2,000 years.

    If Christ bore the sins of this mass of people that I am referring to, then God the Father sent the souls of these people to hell when Christ died for their sins anyway?

    It seems more sensible to me that God the Father chose out of the total mass of humanity a people he would save and sent his Son to die for JUST THEM and chose NOT to save the rest.
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    So then using your analogy, Christ only paid the price for the elect. Sounds like Limited Atonement to me.
     
  19. Robert J Hutton

    Robert J Hutton New Member

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    There is a very good book entitled "Debating Calvinism" which is a debate betwee James White (a Calvinist) and Dave Hunt (a non-calvinist). In this book James White devotes a chapter to this question of the extent of Christ's atonement. Dave Hunt easily shows that it is unbiblical to limit Christ's atonement to a select number. Hebrews 2 v 9 and many other scriptures are crystal clear. It is time to stop relying on the works of men and simply come back to the Bible.

    Kind regards to all.

    Bob
     
  20. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    The simple fact is the scripture spells it out. Why some people refuse to look at all of scripture and take some of it and lift it above other is beyond me.

    For God so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have ever lasting life. John 3:16

    John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


    "The world" - Not "part of the world". Not, "Only a select few."

    THE WORLD. Simple. Now, I haven't looked up the greek, but I believe that it is the same word used 245 other times in the New Testament, and no one ever goes, "No, not the world," the other 245 times.

    "Whosoever" - Is how the King James and Darby translated it.

    Revised Standard translates it "whoever", I believe NIV does as well.

    Definition of whoever "Whatever person or persons". The synonym is "anybody".

    It is conditioned though. "Whosever believes."

    Belief is NOT a work. It is acceptance as truth or real. It is a though process not an action. The extended meaning is has faith in.

    Work is an effort and or activity.

    The words are NOT the same.

    So far you have, "God loved the entire world, and anyone who has faith in His son will not perish."

    He did not send Christ to condemn. He sent Christ, to the world, as a pathway to salvation.

    Not enough?

    Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    There it is again everyone that believes.

    Romans 10:10 "For with the herat man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

    Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

    This is the SAME all that is in "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." ALL really DOES mean ALL.

    Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him he shall appear the secodn time without sin unto salvation."


    Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Luke 8:12 - Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (The word was THERE people, until it was removed. God offered the word to them.)

    John 10:9 - I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (Notice the active verbs).


    Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    There is it again "whosoever" ... anyone - conditional - anyone who calls on the name of Christ.

    Acts 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Notice - the apostles did not say, "You cannot do anything. God already chose who would or wouldn't be saved." They did not say, "Its okay. Don't sweat it. God already picked you, you're in." They said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

    Romans 8:24 - For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (Hope is interchanged with faith here. Faith/Hope saves you.)

    Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. There it is again, a conditional - the one condition - belief.

    Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (He offers the gift of grace, faith in His gift is the condition.)

    1 Timothy 2:4 - Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (Unlike humans who seem to feel a need to go, "I'm special, so I can be saved," God WANTS .. ALL men to come to the truth. He offers grace to ALL men, and sets ONE condition - believe.)

    The elect are those who believe in Christ.
    They are NOT elected so they can believe.
    They BECOME elected BY believing.
     
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