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Did Christ die for everyone or just for the elect?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ron Arndt, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I join with you in amazement of “what we must do to be saved”. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved.
     
  2. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Men's sins can be forgiven if they believe in Christ, confess Him before men, and overcome (persevere in Him until the end).
     
  3. JWI

    JWI New Member

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    Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

    These verses show that a person has the choice of receiving Christ as savior or not. Only to those who receive the free gift does God give the power to become the sons of God.

    Receiving Christ is the same as believeing (to trust, rely, or depend)on him. You cease from trying to save yourself and depend upon Christ's work in your behalf.

    Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    You do not work for a "free" gift. Otherwise it is not free. However, you do have the choice of accepting or rejecting this gift.
     
  4. cojosh

    cojosh New Member

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    JWI wrote:

    **You do not work for a "free" gift. Otherwise it is not free. However, you do have the choice of accepting or rejecting this gift.**

    Amen!!! It's as plain as the nose on my face. From our standpoint, we must recieve the gift. If we don't then we have rejected the gift. If you reject salvation, then it's simple, you don't have it.

    From God's standpoint, He knew that Christ would have to pay the ultimate price before He even said "Let there be light". He knew who would recieve and who would not. We are chosen "in him", if we were just chosen for salvation without having a choice in the matter, then why did God go through the long process. Why did he go to the cross. The death, burial, and resurrection doesn't mean anything if we are not to interact with the gospel. This idea takes every bit of will away from mankind. That's absurd. We are not robots. God allows me to make choices everyday, but not the most important one????? God forced me to accept the gift, yet He allows me to live in a carnal body that still falls short, and it's up to me whether I'm going to be obedient. It doesn't add up. It has never added up.
     
  5. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


    Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, "AND YE WOULD NOT"!

    Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    Evidently, Calvin didn't read the whole Bible to explain how Israel thwart God's will to gather them under his wings when "YE WOULD NOT".

    Or why God told THEM to turn from evil,

    Predestination/Sovereign will doesn't offer a "CHOICE" to "ANYONE".

    That isn't taught in these scripture, but what is taught is a "GOD" who's "LOVE/GRACE" hid the sins of the whole world in the Death of his son,

    Ro 5:20 But where sin abounded, "GRACE" did much more abound:

    God made it possible to "REDEEM" all that Satan destroyed, even single soul, but the "CHOICE" is left to us,

    "UNBELIEF" is the only condemning charge against mankind, it's not our sin, we're all guilty of that charge.

    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:

    but he that believeth not is condemned already,

    because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Calvin evidently didn't understand the basic principles/application of "law/justice", or he would have never accused God of operating a "kangroo Court".
     
  6. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    Belief and acceptance of a gift offered are not works.
     
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    TCassidy, if repentance is entirely a gift then God is speaking against Himself when it is written that He desires all to come to repentance. If He will not act on what He desires, what sort of a God is He?

    If you put your quote from 2 Timothy back into context you will find it reads "Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

    Thus, it is those who oppose the Lord to whom Paul hopes the Lord will grant repentance.

    But this must be balanced by verses which apply to those who certainly do not consciously and actively oppose the Lord (and yet are not regenerate) such as the crowd Peter is speaking to in Acts 2. Peter is telling them what has happened and in verse 37, and continuing, we read, When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

    Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off -- for all whom the Lord our God will call."

    With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


    Look at everything they DID: they had to repent, to be baptized, to accept Peter's message. He even told them to save themselves!

    And yet there is no doubt that Jesus did and has done all the work.

    Repenting and believing is not 'works'. It is a response to the Lord's works for us. It is our proper response, in fact.

    Note: I started this response hours ago and the rest of the day got in the way. So I have no idea how many posts have come and gone since TCassidy's complaint that he was getting ill reading about what he called works-based salvation!
     
  8. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Yeah!
     
  9. lindell dunning1

    lindell dunning1 New Member

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    Now I am puzzled at the Lord's statement in Matthew 20:28. He thought that He came to give His life for the many. Then to add further to the puzzle is His statement in John 17:2. He seems to have thought that He would give eternal life to the many that His Father had given Him to redeem.
    Then to meditate on Acts 13:48 is more than my unbelieving heart can handle for if I maintain my free will then I must re-arrange the verse.
    Then it only follows that I totally ignore John 3:3 and 3:8 as I so dutifully declare John 3:16.
     
  10. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Welcome to Baptist Board, Lindell. It is extremely easy to pull out individual verses to support a point you wish to 'prove'. I know an extreme case of this where a woman claimed that because the Bible states "God is love" that her adulterous relationship was of Him!

    First of all, then, you need to especially consider verses which seem to disagree with you, and not reinterpret or take them out of context. Second, the rule of thumb is to let Bible explain Bible. For instance, the use of 'many' by Jesus in Matthew 20:28. Compare that with Acts 5:19: "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." What does 'many' mean there? Does it mean not all were made sinners? We know better because of the Bible. Did Jesus use 'many' in the same way? When we look at other things He said, it seems that may be the case.

    John 17:2 is part of Jesus high priestly prayer: "For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to allthose you have given him." We see something of this in Jesus statements in John 6: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." and "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." a little bit further on. And then "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

    It looks pretty conclusive. Until you check in with some other things.

    "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man whio bilt his house on the rock..." Matt. 7:24

    A choice is indicated there

    "Whoever acknowledges mea before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." Matt. 10:32-33

    A choice is indicated there

    "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me." Matt. 10:40

    A choice is indicated there

    "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy ad my burden is light." Matt. 11:28-30

    There is nothing there to indicate this is a limited call, unless you think only those predestined to believe are weary and burdened!

    Or combine Matthew 12:50 with John 6:29: "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother...The work of God is this: to believe on the one he has sent."

    This indicates a choice

    "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:11-12

    Definitely indicates a will other than God's at work in the first sentence and a choice in the second.

    Personally, I think the key may be found to this paradox in a combination of John 3:21 and Romans 1:18-19: "But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God...The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them."

    This, along with the many, many verses encouraging people to seek God (for only the very wicked refuse to seek God, as the Psalm points out), indicate that all men are presented with enough truth to know about God and that it is then what people do with that truth which will determine whether or not the Father will lead them to the Son or give them over to the lie. It will be one or the other.

    If the choice for man were not real, then the writer to the Hebrews would be very ignorant in pleading with them not to harden their hearts. And God Himself would be talking nonsense when He invites people to "Come, let us reason together, ...though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are wiling and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." Isaiah 1:18-20

    All of this and so much more, which I am sure you are aware of, must be balanced against verses such as Acts 13:48, and I don't claim to be able to understand fully. But I know that man is given a choice. I also know that God has known from all eternity who will make what choice. I know that those who choose Christ are predestined to be conformed to His image by the power of the Holy Spirit within them.

    But I also know that we do not know everything and that when we try to fit it all into something we can understand and sort of cope with, we are always, but always wrong. A pastor I respect highly referred to the seemingly conflicting verses as 'a divine paradox.'

    Part of that paradox is acknowledging that since God has known always who would be who in the scheme of things that there seems to be an element of predestination along with that foreknowledge. But at the same time, the fact is that throughout the entire Bible, God has made the choice to mainly react to man's choices, warnings or no, and all His power and ability aside (and admitted), and therefore we must also acknowledge that He has given us free will.

    For without that free will we cannot love, and love is the reason we were created. It is the core of the two foundation commandments: love God and love your neighbor. That is what we were created for. But love cannot be programmed in or it is not love. Love itself is a choice, a decision, a commitment made when that commitment does not HAVE to be made. It's what God did for us and what we were created to do for God. And to do that requires that we have a freedom of will to make that choice, that decision, that commitment. We cannot carry it out without Him indwelling us, but the choice is still ours.
     
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, lindell dunning1, in order to believe Helen's "Christ didn't save me, he just made it possible for me to save myself" gospel you would have to not only rearrange the verse in question, you would have to ignore everything the bible says about salvation.

    She still thinks repentance and faith are something she does to merit salvation instead of wonderful gifts which God gives in regeneration.

    As with all Arminians, she has the cart before the horse. What the bible says are the results of regeneration, she says are the cause of regeneration. Very sad. :(
     
  12. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    TCassidy, you consistently misrepresent what I say, what I mean, and what I believe. I wish you would stop doing that. Instead of your ranting and raving, why don't you respond with some real discussion?

    I KNOW I never merited salvation. I know I didn't save myself. You are, AGAIN, intentionally twisting my words. Please get your act together. I can't believe a minister would say what you say and act the way you are acting here.

    I am not Arminian. I am also not Calvinist. To think there is nothing else is presenting a false dichotomy. I am a biblical Christian, born-again by the power of Christ through the gracious Holy Spirit. I did not deserve it, but I gratefully accepted His gift of salvation.
     
  13. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

    but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    How can Helen "pay the wages of sin" to "save herself"???

    The "GIFT" is Jesus redeeming us "FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW", DEATH.

    And only "DEATH" can pay the wages of sin to "redeem".

    so how do you equate "FAITH", "BELIEVING" with "saving yourself??

    Will God save a person "AGAINST" their "WILL", or without "FAITH"??

    Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    De 7:11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

    De 8:11 Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:

    De 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

    Folks in the OT had a "CHOICE", and so do we.
     
  14. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Every Theological System must have a way for every human being in the Universe who ever lived or will ever live to be Justified before God.

    Mormons do it by being Baptized for the Dead.

    I am a Baptist but I have never heard a satisfactory answer from a Non-Calvinist who can tell me how all the people who lived and died before Jesus was Resurrected from the Tomb had a chance to be saved or be justified before God.

    The Calvinist says that it was done through Election from the Beginning of time to the End of time.

    How does the Non-Calvinist respond to this?

    Did Christ die for everyone who had ever lived? If so then how is that applied to some and not to others? Was it personal Faith in an unknown God or Savior that caused some to be saved? Or was it election that caused their faith in an unknown Savior thus resulting in their ultimate salvation?

    Or did he die for only those who would have a chance to audibly hear or read about the Gospel after his death and resurrection?

    What about those who died the week after the resurrection in China who never heard the gospel?

    What about those who died this week in China without ever having heard the Gospel?

    I'd really like to hear some answers from non-Calvinists to these questions.
     
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Because she thinks it was her faith, and her decision, that saved her, not realizing that it was God's gift of faith, and his regeneration that allowed her to chose Christ, not the other way around.
    No. god gives us faith and the will to come to Him.
    And the unregenerate man will always make the wrong choice. The unregenerate man is God's enemy and not only can't come to Him, but won't come to Him. If God did not draw us, give us the gifts of faith and repentance, then none would ever come. It is all of Him and none of us. And that is what Arminians like Helen can't seem to understand. She says it was all of Him, but changes her mind and says that she had to make the right choice. Then she accuses me of misrepresenting her position even though I didn't. The problem is that she can't seem to discern the repercussions of her position. She still thinks she had to do something to receive salvation. :(
     
  16. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Hello ld1. You declare well for this is the message for we in the Body of Christ. You seen to understand how to divide the Word of God.

    ”Let not your heart be troubled:……. John 14:1.” Most will look at this and say Oh Yeah! But the more they read the more they doubt, or don’t understand. We can see the Apostles did not understand. People today continue as the Apostles back then. Also we must take notice to whom Jesus is talking. He is talking only to His own “little flock”. This does not apply to we today (exactly as spoken), especially the Gentile, for Gentile’s were not included at this time. We must believe what we read, for Jesus while on earth said He did not come for the “heathen” the first time – Matthew 15:26.

    Matthew 20:28, ”Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” Here again Jesus is only interested in His on people, those that are full bloodied from the loins of Jacob – Matthew 10:5-7, ” These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” All Christians need to come to the realization that “all scripture is for us, but not all scripture is written to us”. And please note the gospel of that day.

    John 17:2, ”As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” Doesn’t this, and other parts of John sound like the gospel of Paul? John wrote His books 30 or so years after the death of Paul. John’s writings help to verify the Epistles of Paul. Along with Peter acknowledging the wisdom Christ Jesus gave to Paul, should give all pause, contemplating the gospel of Paul, which is the gospel of Christ Jesus from Heaven for the “Gentiles”, and Jews today.

    But people say, What John writes is what Jesus said on earth. True, but we know no one understood what Jesus was talking about. All about the “Body of Christ”, the Gentiles to be saved “Through” faith, the Rapture, Sleep, the One Spiritual circumcision and baptism without hands, and other things were hidden in God until revealed to Paul. Jesus could not give these “secrets” away while on earth, for ”But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory”,
    I Corinthians 2:7-8.

    Acts 13:48, ”And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Amen! That’s us (me).

    John 3:3, ”Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Amen! That’s us.

    John 3:8, ”The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” We are free as the “wind”. Are we of works or the law? We are dead to the law, so we are free of sin. Can we see the wind? Can we see the Spirit? We see what wind can do as it stirs up typhoons, hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. We can’t see the wind, but we can see the effect, and we can see the effect of those with the Spirit, but the source is invisible.

    John 3:16, ” For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Did anyone understand ”And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness” when it happened, or even afterwards? Did anyone understand ” even so must the Son of man be lifted up”, John 3:14? Even when Jesus said the words, no one had any idea what He was talking about. When did these things become known, and should be understood by we today? A good number of years earlier we learn this same information from Christ in heaven as Paul proclaims the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven – Acts 16:31, ”And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

    It is only after the gospel of Paul became known to the world, did the Holy Spirit have John (he that tarried for a purpose) confirm what Christ Jesus said. Can we believe what Christ said on earth, and in heaven? Of course, for now in this "dispensation" we have all of the information, and it is explained to us. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  17. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I add some more questions to those of hardsheller's.

    What about those who died in Japan when Christ was first brought to Pilate ?
    What about those who lived in the North Pole when Moses was leading Israel out of Egypt, or when God was illustrating the Saviorhood of Christ through the brazen serpent ?
    What about those in the South Pole during those times ? What about all those babies who will die in the womb, or during birth, before Abraham was ever called by God ?
    Are these all condemned to hell ? Yet non-Calvinists charge those who hold to the doctrines of grace of condemning souls to hell with the doctrine of election.

    On what basis, I have asked this once and ask it again, did God take Enoch and Elijah up to heaven when these events took place before the cross ?

    Somebody said on the basis of Christ being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the blood of the Lamb being spilled from before the foundation of the world also, BUT, was that true only of Enoch, Elijan, the Old Testament saints ?
     
  18. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (souls imprisoned by sin)

    1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick (alive) and the dead.

    6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, (prior to his appearing) that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    Belief/unbelief in Jesus are the justifying/condemning charges for, "ALL MEN", from "ALL AGES".

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
     
  19. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Originally by M34Him:

    If belief on Jesus Christ is the factor for justifying/condemning for 'ALL MEN', from 'ALL AGES', as you say, then I take the side of Paul and ask:

    How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
     
  20. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    How about using Paul and Silas, non-Calvinist’s, revealing the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven in Acts 16:38-31. Yet, all those predestined today to hear the gospel of Christ Jesus will hear it. I did, and so have you. All those that are predestined to be in the Body of Christ today will be, and those that are not predestined to be in the kingdom of Christ will not be.

    Who knows the mind of God? We just take it by faith that God knows what He is doing, and He is a just God. Is there any doubt that God is reconciling the world unto Himself today, of those that will? We that are saved rest on His promise of grace, and those that are lost will be held responsible for their remaining in their sinful nature.

    God chose His nation, and Christ has His kingdom, and gave His Apostles their kingdom. Christ evidently wants certain one’s in His kingdom, and I am one He has chosen. I didn’t refuse. I was predestined to be in His kingdom, but had I refused, I would be predestined to the lake of fire. He called and when I turned toward Him, He chose me to be circumcised, and baptized without hands for repentance is in Him. Christian faith, ituttut
     
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