Did Christ die for everyone or just for the elect?

[pinoybaptist]

Originally by ituttut:

QUOTE]
...........I didn’t refuse. I was predestined to be in His kingdom, but had I refused, I would be predestined to the lake of fire.
[/quote]

So, the Almighty Creator God's sovereign will to predestine His elect to salvation in Christ still depends on the power of the fallen creature's will manifested in his acceptance or refusal of God's call ?

 

[cojosh]

posted November 21, 2005 05:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally by ituttut:

QUOTE]
...........I didn’t refuse. I was predestined to be in His kingdom, but had I refused, I would be predestined to the lake of fire.
[/quote]


Many of us are under the impression that it is our responsibility to believe and recieve, because it is clear that the Bible tells us it is our responsibility. If believing and recieving is a works salvation that cannot merit anything then we are under a "false impression". This means that it is untrue and this untruth is taught to us in scripture, therefore, it is a lie. Did God lie to us? If He is misleading us to believe something that isn't true then He is lying. The Bible says he cannot lie, so all those folks who think that we do not have the choice to recieve salvation have made God a liar. Think about it!

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Originally by M34Him:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Belief/unbelief in Jesus are the justifying/condemning charges for, "ALL MEN", from "ALL AGES

If belief on Jesus Christ is the factor for justifying/condemning for 'ALL MEN', from 'ALL AGES', as you say, then I take the side of Paul and ask:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? </font>[/QUOTE]Paul answered that, Pinoy, if you will finish the section you are quoting.

"But I ask, Did they not hear? Of course they did:
'Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.'"

As much as people do not like it, Paul is making direct reference to the Gospel in the Stars -- the same Gospel that Abraham believed when it was credited to him as righteousness in Genesis 15.

God left no man out. Every man has had a choice based on enough knowledge to accept or refuse God's gift of salvation.

 

[lindell dunning1]

Dear Helen,
The Lord is sovereign over all things and peoples,even their wills. There are many illustrations of this given throughout the Old Testament.
Paul says that there are those who deny the Lord's power and he states in another place that there are many who walk as believers but are actually enemies of the cross.
For several centuries this kind of religious nonsense has occupied the time and talents of many a professing christian. I do not really know why I threw my hat into the ring. In times past I have seen men take up the gauntlet at church, read and argue this subject from pillar to post, with other discussion groups and there is not one passage of scripture that hasn't been quoted and assailed from every possible angle by both the learned and unlearned. And I has never seemed to edify a single person that I know of, or that any good was ever derived from it.
I know that you believe passionately every thing you espouse and that in itself is commendable. I too am passionate and full of sheer delight when speaking publicly of Him. I have adopted Proverbs 21:1 as my mindset forever and will never move away from it. Where Solomom uses the word king,I substitute my own name. And to sum up the matter,my love for the Savior began when He applied the energies from Psalm 65:4 and through James 1:18.
I will not respond to any further posts as I am reminded of Titus 1:9. I would rather offend you than to ignore the principle presented there. I hope that He will grant you a place of repentance for He did not do so for Esau even though Esau sought it with bitterness and tears,for it is the goodness of the Lord alone that leads to repentance and not of him who wills,nor of him who runs,but from the Lord who exercises His mercy.

 

[Helen]

In that case, Lindell, the entire Bible is actually unnecessary.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Originally by ituttut:

QUOTE]
...........I didn’t refuse. I was predestined to be in His kingdom, but had I refused, I would be predestined to the lake of fire.

So, the Almighty Creator God's sovereign will to predestine His elect to salvation in Christ still depends on the power of the fallen creature's will manifested in his acceptance or refusal of God's call ? [/QUOTE]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention pinoybaptist.

Poor mark-copy-paste on my part. My original sentence read “If I thought I was predestined……..” This would then make me think I was calling the shots, as you correctly point out, and some believe. If you will notice the clear thought is shown preference by “Christ evidently wants certain one’s in His kingdom, and I am one He has chosen”, meaning He chose me, and not I Him. It is only we chosen that respond to His Love. Christian faith, ituttut

P.S. Leaving today on the train for Thanksgiving here in the States at one of my Sons in Virginia. Back next week.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Ephesians 4:29

is what we as christians must do which leads to Faith

Epesians 2:8

Folks Remeber Salvation is a Gift and Gifts can be rejected or accepted God gave us free will to Choose Salvation and that Salvation is everlasting. Once accept your asking Christ to me your LORD and SAVIOR

LORD--Master, your will is subject to his.
SAVIOR--Your place in Heaven is secure

Now if Christ is your Lord you will follow his will and your works/life will show it and your works will be rewarded in heaven but they will not save you Ephesians 2:9

But your works are important for reward
James 2:24,26
Revelation 2:26
Revelation 20:13


"""I have always believed the bible teaches that the Father elected a certain mass of people called the elect and Christ came to bear their sins on the cross.I Pet 2:24"""

1 Peter 2:24 doesnt support the above statement
I dont see how that verse would make you think that Christ's death applys only to a few people.

"""Webdog--is correct....We are saved by grace alone through faith alone, works have no part in justification. Sanctification is separate from justification."""""


And to Grasshopper
your question was...If Jesus paid for the sins of ALL then what will the lost be punished for? Didn't Jesus pay the price for ALL? Are they punsished for sins that Jesus already paid for? Or did Jesus die for ALL and only pay the sin penalty for the elect?

My answer is this, Sin doesnt send you to hell because we all sin daily. Christ died for all Sin.
BUT in order for sin to be forgive us we must ACCEPT Christ and ASK for FORGIVENESS without accepting Christ you cant get into Heaven.
KEY WORDS ARE "ACCEPTANCE OF CHRIST"

Matthew 18:3
Simple means for us to depend on Christ for all our needs just like children depend on there parents for there needs. If we do this we will follow Gods will.

Romans 6:23
Means Because of SIN we die thats our punishment.We all are punished for sin through death physically and spritually we are spiritually given eternal life through the acceptance of Christ. We are dead spiritually as lost people hence the phrase "born again" when we are saved our spirit is made new and our lifes changed.

I could go on but I think I will end by saying
The Holy Spirit gives use the understanding of Gods Holy Word through prayer and devotion. If you hear a preacher, minister, chaplain, or other Christian say something look for it in the Bible. If you cant find it pray about it and ask others about it. Beliefs are shaped by what we hear and believe to be truth. Dont let Satan twist Gods words dont come to a belief system because it sounds pretty or its easy. Go by what the Word of God says and remember to take the word of God with love, gentleness, and meekness always praying for wisdom and understanding with an unselfish heart.

Please feel free to contact me
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
[email protected]
http://www.truechristministries.com

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by cojosh:
posted November 21, 2005 05:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally by ituttut:

QUOTE]
...........I didn’t refuse. I was predestined to be in His kingdom, but had I refused, I would be predestined to the lake of fire.

Many of us are under the impression that it is our responsibility to believe and recieve, because it is clear that the Bible tells us it is our responsibility. If believing and recieving is a works salvation that cannot merit anything then we are under a "false impression". This means that it is untrue and this untruth is taught to us in scripture, therefore, it is a lie. Did God lie to us? If He is misleading us to believe something that isn't true then He is lying. The Bible says he cannot lie, so all those folks who think that we do not have the choice to recieve salvation have made God a liar. Think about it! [/QUOTE]

Please see mine just within the last hour to pinoybaptist. I see you picked-up what I was saying.

You need scripture to back you up.

Must go, as leaving to catch train for Thanksgiving visit. Back next week, and we can talk.

Happy Thanksgiving to all in the States, ituttut

 

[webdog]

If Christ did not die for the non-elect, does He love them? If He does love them, why not elect them, or offer them the same chance as the elect instead of arbitrarily damning them? Unconditional Election would only be correct if God hated the reprobate. God does not.
We are to “be like God” in that we are to love EVEN our enemies – for we have been given “the mind of Christ”

Here we see the "mind of Christ" that is given to the saints.

Matt 5
44 ""But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 ""For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 ""If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 ""Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Jesus is telling us to love even our enemies.


1 John 2 tells us we can know we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments. The above scripture in Mattew 5 is clearly a command, no?

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

We are called to be "like God" in that we Love others instead of arbitrarily picking people "to hate". Not even our enemy may be "hated" using that model of "The mind of Christ".

1Cor 2
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

If we have the "mind of Christ", and He commands us to love our enemies, He obviously does, too.

1John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

"The one who does not love does not know God"? Does this mean that God doesn't know Himself?! Are we "more like God THAN GOD"??

Surely not!!

It is not in God's nature to hate His creation, only the actions of His creation, as evidenced throughout the Bible.

1 John 3:14-15 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."

 

[Helen]

Rev. Lowery and webdog: really appreciate the above posts. Nice job, and thank you.

 

[Salamander]

To as many as received Him, gave He power to become the sons of God.

Seems receiving isn't the element of overpowering the believer as the Calvinist sees, but rather the power to turn one's will over to the will of the Father to become a son of God.

Receiving is the opposite of rejection, all within the power of the individual, but not to the effect one can choose to be saved at any moment in time, but that God chose to convict the sinner, offer salvation, for God hath lightened every man. Whether the Calvinist likes it God's way or not, God still would have all men everywhere to be saved, but all men will not be saved. Why and why not? Men who reject love darkness and reject that Light.

The Calvinist rejects the authority of that Light and deems it within his theology to deduce a doctrine that does not exist within the context of the entirity of Scripture.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Originally by M34Him:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Belief/unbelief in Jesus are the justifying/condemning charges for, "ALL MEN", from "ALL AGES

If belief on Jesus Christ is the factor for justifying/condemning for 'ALL MEN', from 'ALL AGES', as you say, then I take the side of Paul and ask:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? </font>[/QUOTE]"Good point".

The Gospel must be preached to "ALL THE WORLD" before the end comes, "WHY"??

The Gospel is a "Witness" for/against people in Judgment.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If God made provisions for those who died prior to Jesus, he'll provide an opportunity for all others,

"JUSTICE" demands that all be given "EQUAL OPPORTUNITY" to be saved, and through their "Belief/Unbelief" they pass "JUDGEMENT on "THEMSELBVES".

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:

but he that believeth not is condemned already,

"BECAUSE"...HE.. hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Actually, God doesn't judge anyone, He only passes "JUDGEMENT" according to the "LAW",

"FAITH" is Jesus, the "DEBT" of sin is "PAID", the "LAW" of death doesn't apply. (not under the law)

"Unbelief", the "DEBT" of "DEATH" is still owed.

Predestination says God doesn't judge according to "LAW" but "predilection", chosing whom he "likes/dislikes",

But that "NEGATES":
1. the "LAW",
2. Justice in Judgement,
3. the necessity of Jesus's death,
4. and of "FAITH" to be saved.

SO, when all have "HEARD THE GOSPEL", it will be a "WITNESS" that they "HAD THE OPPORTUNTIY" to "Believe",

THAT'S JUSTICE

 

[Helen]

I've got animals, so forgive me if I tend to bring things down to pictures that seem to correlate.

The Calvinist approach seems to me to be like this:

I've got chickens. Chickens normally fly, but I have clipped their wings so they can't fly.

But I don't like birds that can't fly, so I'll shoot my chickens.

It's perfectly just, since I have decreed that all birds who do not fly around here should not live, and I own the place.

Then if I choose to keep a chicken or two and let their feathers grow back in so they can fly, that shows how merciful and loving I am.

I know the story doesn't work because we cannot 'grow' good natures back in, but the idea of justice and mercy as the Calvinist sees it seems to run along these lines.

The Calvinist idea of choice and yet all unregenerate will always choose one thing is a little like offering one of my mares Thanksgiving turkey and then shooting her when she refuses it and saying "well, she had a choice!" Horses don't eat meat! At all, ever. So offering it to them is no choice at all! I might as well offer a tub of dirt. She would refuse that, too. There is no choice involved and yet the Calvinist says of the sinner: well, they have a choice, sure, but they will ALWAYS choose evil!

First of all, when I look around me in the world I don't see the unregenerate always choosing evil. Second, if that were true, it is no choice at all and the word 'choice' is being twisted in meaning until it loses meaning. When words no longer mean what they are designed to mean, language loses its function.

When 'world' does not mean 'world', and 'all' does not mean 'all', and 'none' does not mean 'none', etc. etc., as the Calvinist requires they do not, then the very concept of language as a tool for communicating truth becomes null and void.

The Bible clearly states that not only do men have a choice, but that they have the clear ability to make that choice ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. Both sides are available and both sides are possible for each man. To claim that choosing or wanting is 'salvation by works' is ludicrous and again destroying the very meaning of words and use of language. Christ did all the work, and continues to do it through us who are believers. To choose to accept that, to choose to submit, in no way negates the fact that Christ has and is doing 100% of the work.

 

[webdog]

Great points, Helen. I am also taken back to the verse that says we are to have the faith of a child. This means a child would / should understand the gospel message. The theology of calvinism is a doctrine based on intellect and severe twisting of not only passages, but simple words to fit into a "system". God's love far outweighs any man made system. Calvinism is chalk full of contradictions. Try explaining to a 10 year old the doctrines of TULIP, then show them John 3:16 and how that relates to them. Which theology would a child understand: God loves some...and hates others, of God loves the world, even you!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by webdog:
Great points, Helen. I am also taken back to the verse that says we are to have the faith of a child. This means a child would / should understand the gospel message.

I don't think that's what "faith of a child" means. Children trust and believe very easily without question. I believe this is what it referrs to.

Don't forget also that Cor tells us that when we're children, we think and act as children, but when we become adults, we're to put aside our childish ways. This reference is in regards to agape love, the kid of love God has for us. One could argue that this verse suggests that as children, we don't have a grasp of the gospel, but as adults, we can, and should.

 

[webdog]

How can someone "trust and believe" calvinism without question? I would disagree with the reference in Corinthians. I believe Paul was refering to our growth in Christ. I was saved at 7 years old. I had a grasp of the gospel message at that age. If someone would have tried explaining TULIP to me then, I would not have responded. The gospel message is easy to understand, even for a child.

 

[Johnv]

My son is 9, and doesn't have a conscious grasp of the gospel message. I wouldn't consider him hellbound if he died tomorrow. Hopefully, neither would you.

 

[Hardsheller]

So none of you non-Calvinists think that man's fall was complete? Just how far did Adam fall in the Garden of Eden?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
So none of you non-Calvinists think that man's fall was complete? Just how far did Adam fall in the Garden of Eden?

I hope that's not directed towards me. I've in fact made it a point to generally avoid C/A debates in general, because they typically produce bad fruit. I tend to limit my comments to side-topics on the discussion, which often bear some good fruit from time to time.

 

[Hardsheller]

No John That wasn't directed at you. It was a serious question for Helen, Webdog and others. I should have been more specific.