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Featured Did Christ Die For The Sin Of Unbelief?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Nov 21, 2021.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    If Christ satisfied for all sin, the sin of unbelief was paid for. If Christ died in the stead of all men, and made satisfaction for their sins, then either he died for all of their sins, or only for some of their sins. If he died for only some, then who can be saved? If he died for all, then why are all not saved? They say it is because of their unbelief; they will not believe, and therefore they are not saved. Is unbelief a sin, or not? If it is not, then how can it be a cause of damnation? If it is, then Christ died for it, or he did not. If he did not, then he did not die for all the sins of all men. If he did, then why is this an obstacle to their salvation? Is there any new slant to this? Is this not the same old condition, that they are not saved because they do not believe? That is, either Christ did not die for their unbelief because they would not believe, or else he did die for their unbelief but conditionally, and that condition was that they were believers... John Owen... The Death Of Death In The Death Of Christ... 1647

    Brother Glen:)

    https://www.apuritansmind.com/wp-co...heDeathofDeathintheDeathofChrist-JohnOwen.pdf
     
    #1 tyndale1946, Nov 21, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
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  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    This is what John Owens and I agree on and usually when I post sound doctrine I add scripture to go with it, and I'm not about to change now... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

    5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
     
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  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Is Unbelief a sin ?

    Yes, by all means and it's illustrated by the unbelief of the jews who departed from egypt Heb 3:16-19. Now notice vs 17 " them that had sinned" are them that believed not in vs 18-19, the sin was believing not or unbelief.

    So now when Paul preached that Christ died for our sins 1 Cor 15:3, and yet that didn't include their sin of unbelief, then he lied on Christ. The point is this, if Christ died for our sins, then He died for our unbelief, and we can't be condemned for it as some are Jn 3:18

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Now proof positive that unbelievers Christ died for can not be condemned for unbelief is Rom 5:10, that while we were enemies and unbelievers obviously, we still had been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, which is not the case if we are under condemnation for unbelief.
     
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Whatever is not of faith is sin. Even a Boyscout helping an old lady cross the street is a sin, if not done in faith towards God.
     
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    But this unbelief, is it a sin or not? If [unbelief is] not [a sin], why should [unbelievers] be punished for it? ... If [Christ did die for the sin of unbelief], then why [would the sin of unbelief] hinder [the unbelievers from being saved any] more than their other sins for which [Christ died]?

    The answer to the trilemma is fairly trivial:

    While refusal to believe is indeed a sin, the reason it keeps one from salvation is not due to it being a sin, but because unbelief, by definition, precludes belief in Christ, without which no one can be saved (Heb_11:6). As with all sins Christ died for, forgiveness for unbelief is only obtained through subsequent belief in Him.

    While Owen’s argument is trifling at best, his sophomoric reasoning isn’t the biggest problem here. While unstated, there is a premise both insidious and heretical that one must hold to make this argument without duplicity or cognitive dissonance: If one is seriously arguing that unbelief would not stop a person from being forgiven any more than any other sin, that is effectively saying that Christ’s death brings about salvation whether or not one believes. Or to put it succinctly,

    If Christ died for one’s sin of unbelief, then faith isn’t necessary for salvation.

    Note that he is not arguing that all for whom Christ died must eventually believe and be saved
    , no, he is saying they would be saved despite not believing! Any Bible-believing Christian should be horrified by such a godless and contra-scriptural idea. That faith is absolutely necessary to be saved is all over the New Testament (in Joh_3:16-18, Act_13:39, Rom_3:22, Rom_5:1-2, Rom_10:9, Gal_2:16, Gal_3:22, to give a few references). How in the world can an allegedly Christian theologian be arguing that lack of faith wouldn’t stop someone from receiving forgiveness?

    If such a premise were true, it would entail that whether one believes has no bearing on whether he obtains salvation and one can only conclude that salvation is not by faith.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    A third option is He died for all sin (including unbelief) and judgment was given to Him.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    LOL, you lost me when you claimed Owen's position was sophomoric.
    Perhaps I am the only one who sees you openly contradicting yourself; trying to dance around it; and then claim Owen is sophomoric.
    Silverhair, John Owen was born knowing more scripture than you have ever learned. For you to call him sophomoric is laughable.
    Second, Paul tells us that God's grace is necessary for salvation. Faith is the fruit that is given from that gracious salvation, which God graciously gives to his elect.
    You keep creating meritorious conditions necessary for God to save. It's just sad to see you preach a gospel the Apostles never taught.
     
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  8. poor-in-spirit

    poor-in-spirit Active Member
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    No sir, He did say that He cannot deny Himself:
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Your Calvinism is showing. You are so invested in that view that you refuse see past it. Quite frankly your comments are quite boring as they never change.
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Unbelief is the one sin that cannot be atoned for at the cross as it is the unforgivable sin. If a person does not believe then they cannot be saved. Would you not agree with that?

    And as was in the comment the major problem with Owen is:
    "Note that he is not arguing that all for whom Christ died must eventually believe and be saved, no, he is saying they would be saved despite not believing!"

    Simple logic would show that if unbelief were indeed covered then there would be no requirement for someone to believe in order to be saved. Note that "believe" and "not believe" in Joh 3:18 are in the present tense, {a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time} Those people had to do something at that time and that is when they were saved or condemned.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Simple logic does not show that if unbelief were covered then there would be no requirement for someone to believe in order to be saved. For it to be otherwise would require atonement and forgiveness to be synonymous.

    I grant for positions of a calvinistic trajectory (Calvinism, Arminianism, Amyraldianism, and similar positions) logic would dictate that Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief. But this is assuming those positions correct and universal throughout Christianity.

    Also, we were not believers at birth. Our past disbelief was forgiven us once we believed.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    [Mark 3:28-30, "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."]
     
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  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    If unbelief were covered, along with all the other sins, then that would rule out the requirement for forgiveness as their sins would all be covered. If faith/belief in Christ Jesus is the one requirement that God has placed on our salvation and if unbelief was dealt with at the cross via the atonement then that would remove the requirement for belief.

    Jon I agree that atonement and forgiveness are not synonymous. While the atonement made salvation possible as Christ Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to cover the sins of all mankind it is only efficient for those that place their trust in Christ Jesus. Therefore if unbelief were removed as an impediment to salvation then belief would not be a requirement for salvation.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think you are missing what I am trying to say. I think I have simply explained what I mean poorly.

    I agree with you that only those who believe have forgiveness.

    I cannot agree with the statement that Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief. The reason is I do not believe Christ died for particular sins but instead for our sins in general. He suffered and died under the curse of Sin.

    Had the blood of Christ been inadequate a price to redeem the unbeliever there would be no salvation. I would, in fact, be lost forever because there was a time I did not believe. My disbelief prior to believing was a sin.

    In fact, the sin of unbelief is the greatest sin that we are forgiven. I once was lost, but now I am found. I once was an unbeliever, now I believe. My sin of unbelief has been forgiven. I repented of that sin when I believed.

    In my opinion the sin of unbelief being covered by the Cross is the best model of repentance and forgiveness.
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    I understand what you are saying and to a point I can agree with you. But if as you say unbelief was forgiven at the cross then how would unbelief deny salvation? All our sins are forgiven us when we believe. It is the change from unbelief to belief that brings about salvation.

    That change of heart is the condition required for salvation, if that condition were not there then we could be saved

    Unbelief is what separates us from Christ Jesus.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But at the same time unbelief is a sin. Would we not also need to be forgiven of having not believed?

    I think I see where we may disagree. I am not saying that we were forgiven at the cross.
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Jon if you look at the OP, which is what I was commenting on.

    Christ underwent the pains of hell for,
    1] either all the sins of all men,
    2] or all the sins of some men,
    3] or some sins of all men.
    If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved; for if God enter into judgment with us, though it were with all mankind for one sin, no flesh should be justified in his sight: "If the Lord should mark iniquities, who should stand?" Ps. cxxx. 3 {Psa_130:3}. We might all go to cast all that we have "to the moles and to the bats, to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty," Isa. ii. 20, 21 {Isa_2:20-21}.
    If the second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world.
    If the first, why, then, are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins?
    You will say, "Because of their unbelief; they will not believe."
    But this unbelief, is it a sin or not? If not, why should they be punished for it?
    If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it, or not.
    If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death?
    If he did not, then did he not die for all their sins.
    Let them choose which part they will.

    Jon I feel that we have been talking past each other on this. As I had said before, while the atonement made salvation possible as Christ Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to cover the sins of all mankind it is only efficient for those that place their trust in Christ Jesus.

    Owen was arguing for a position that belief is not required for salvation as it, as a sin, was covered by the atonement. By his argument he is saying that the "elect of the world" would not have any sins to answer for as they were all dealt with at the cross and thus would not need to believe to be saved.

    I do find it odd that Owen would think that Christ Jesus was able to atone for all the sins of some men,the elect, but was unable to atone for all the sins of all men. Were the elect somehow different from the rest of mankind?

    In answer to your question, yes unbelief is a sin but it is the condition that is required for the forgiveness of our sins.
     
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Why them Christ died for cant die in unbelief !

    Jesus once said Jn 10:26

    But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    In other words, if they were of His Sheep that He came to live and die in behalf of, they would believe on Him, or they would become believers. Now why is that so ? Because Christ has came and fulfilled the Law for them, and hence its written Rom 10: 4

    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    When Christ came in the flesh, He came to fulfill the Law for all them He represented, them which had been given Him of His Father. He in their names and stead did obey Gods Law for them, it was in His Heart to do so Heb 10:7-9

    7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    Now this actually was taken from a Psalm 40:7-8

    7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

    Now what needs to be understood is that Christ did this not as a single private person, but as an Surety Head Representative, like Adam was in the beginning. Now, Christ did successfully do and keep and fulfill the Law for all whom He represented, being totally obedient to all of its righteous precepts.

    Now remember when Jesus made this statement Matt 23:23

    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    Well these weightier matters of the Law, Judgment, Mercy, and Faith He did , kept and obeyed for them He came in the flesh for.

    Luke writes Lk 11:42

    But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    Basically what Jesus is saying that these false people of God neglected to do is this Matt 22:36-40

    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

    37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    38 This is the first and great commandment.

    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    So Jesus has fully fulfilled these Two commandments for all whom He came to live and die for !

    He has for them #1. "loved the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind

    #2. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Now understand, When He did this, these Two things, He did them in behalf of His People He came to live and die for, He kept the Law of God perfectly for them, and God reckons it so as if they did it themselves, as it was in Adam, when he sinned against Gods Law, when he sinned, all sinned with him, so it is with Christ, when He obeyed, all in Him obeyed.

    Now within Christ's Obedience to Gods Law was His Faith and Love to God Matt 23:23

    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    Christ in His suretyship obedience to Gods Law in the behalf of His people could not have obeyed without Faith, for in fact, its impossible to please God apart from it Heb 11:6. Christ had Faith as it is written Heb 12:2

    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    As the Author of Faith, it means several things, one being this. The word author in the original is the greek word archēgos and means:

    the chief leader, prince
    of Christ

    one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer
    the author

    He was the example of Faith in God !

    So therefore He had Faith in keeping the Law of God for His People, Hence His Peoples Faith began in Him, when He kept the Law for them.

    So that's why its impossible for anyone Christ Lived and died for can live and die in unbelief, seeing they have already in their Surety Head believed ! Its just as sure as not one person Adam represented in his sin for them, can not be born a sinner, to manifest their union with adam when he sinned, and so it is with Christ, not one sinner He lived and died for can live and die without Faith to manifest their union with Christ !
     
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We may be talking past one another. When people have different views thus is very easily ti do and differences appear larger than they actually are.

    I do not believed that Jesus suffered for specific sinful acts or attitudes/ beliefs but for our sin (for the root cause of sinful actions).

    I have a hard time understanding how we could think Jesus did not suffer for tge sin of disbelief as it seems to me this is closer to the truth of what He suffered for.

    By this I mean the consequence or wages of sin is death. This is sin in general. I believe that sin of disbelief (not a belief like demons have but genuine belief) is the sin that produces sinful acts.

    I once did not belueve and for that was under condemnation. But Chriat suffered for my sin - not to purchase my sins but to purchase me. I believe this applies to the whole of humanity.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I left your view and refuse to go back to a graceless gospel.
     
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