Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

[MB]

Christ so Loved the world He died for it. Did He choose to die for the world or only some of the world?
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Christ didn't come to condemn but that the world might be saved.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

These two verses show clearly that the whole world has been chosen for Salvation. These aren't the only ones.
God has granted repentance to the gentiles not just some of them but the gentiles as a whole.
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Salvation was already availiable to the Jew now it's availiable to all men.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The righteousness of Christ can be worn by all men and the free gift of that righteousness will justify all who submit.
Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jam 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jam 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
How could it be God's will that all men be saved if He didn't choose all men.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In these passages is the election of all men. Will any one show me scriptures of the particular election of just some men to Salvation?
MB

 

[Allan]

This will add somewhat to your OP concerning the historical thought of 'limited or specific atonement from the early Christian Fathers and even those of the Reformed Faith.
Please Note the following:

I posted this a while ago as it was compiled by Ron Rhodes an avowed 4 point Calvinist:

Quotations from the Early Church Fathers
Clement of Alexandria (150-220): "Christ freely brings...salvation to the whole human race."

Eusebius (260-340): "It was needful that the Lamb of God should be offered for the other lambs whose nature He assumed, even for the whole human race."

Athanasius (293-373): "Christ the Son of God, having assumed a body like ours, because we were all exposed to death [which takes in more than the elect], gave Himself up to death for us all as a sacrifice to His Father."

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "Do not wonder if the whole world was ransomed, for He was not a mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God."

Gregory of Nazianzen (324-389): "The sacrifice of Christ is an imperishable expiation of the whole world."

Basil (330-379): "But one thing was found that was equivalent to all men....the holy and precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He poured out for us all."

Ambrose (340-407): "Christ suffered for all, rose again for all. But if anyone does not believe in Christ, he deprives himself of that general benefit."
He also said, "Christ came for the salvation of all, and undertook the redemption of all, inasmuch as He brought a remedy by which all might escape, although there are many who...are unwilling to be healed."

Augustine (354-430): Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are also clear statements in Augustine's writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example: "The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price: what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?"
He also stated, "The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of all sins."

Cyril of Alexandria (376-444): "The death of one flesh is sufficient for the ransom of the whole human race, for it belonged to the Logos, begotten of God the Father."

Prosper (a friend and disciple of Augustine who died in 463): "As far as relates to the magnitude and virtue of the price, and to the one cause of the human race, the blood of Christ is the redemption of the whole world: but those who pass through this life without the faith of Christ, and the sacrament of regeneration, do not partake of the redemption."
He also said, "The Savior is most rightly said to have been crucified for the redemption of the whole world." He then said, "Although the blood of Christ be the ransom of the whole world, yet they are excluded from its benefit, who, being delighted with their captivity, are unwilling to be redeemed by it."

Quotations from the Reformers of the 16th Century
Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

Philip Melanchton (1497-1560): "It is necessary to know that the Gospel is a universal promise, that is, that reconciliation is offered and promised to all mankind. It is necessary to hold that this promise is universal, in opposition to any dangerous imaginations on predestination, lest we should reason this promise pertains to a few others and ourselves. But we declare that the promise of the Gospel is universal. And to this are brought those universal expressions which are used constantly in the Scriptures."

Other people involved to some degree in the Reformation who held to unlimited atonement include: Hugh Latimer, Myles Coverdale, Thomas Cranmer, Wolfgang Musculus, Henry Bullinger, Benedict Aretius, Thomas Becon, Jerome Zanchius, David Paraeus, and John Calvin.

Quotations from Other Luminaries from Recent Church History
Philip Schaff: "His saving grace flows and overflows to all and for all, on the simple condition of faith....If, by the grace of God, I could convert a single skeptic to a childlike faith in Him who lived and died for me and for all, I would feel that I had not lived in vain."

B. F. Westcott: "Potentially, the work of Christ extends to the whole world." And "the love of God is without limit on His part, but to appropriate the blessing of love, man must fulfill the necessary condition of faith."

A. T. Robertson: [The word "world" in John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world" - means] "the whole cosmos of men, including the Gentiles, the whole human race," and adds that "this universal aspect of God's love appears also in II Cor. 5:19; Rom. 5:8."

Tidbits
The 6th council in Constantinople (680-681) declared, "Wherefore we confess two wills and two operations, concurring most fitly in him for the salvation of the human race."

The reformers, and certainly the children of the reformers, were not united on this matter. It is, of course, no secret to the student of the Reformation that the Lutheran branch almost without exception embraced the unlimited view. "But that Luther, Melanchthon, Osiander, Brentius, Oecoiampadius, Zwinglius and Bucer held to the doctrine of a general atonement...
Thus also, it was with their immediate successors, as the language of the Psalgrave Confession testifies.... 'Of the power and death of Christ, believe we,' say these German Christians, that the death of Christ (whilst he being not a bare man, but the Son of God, died,) is a full, all sufficient payment, not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. . . [James Richards, Lectures on Mental Philosophy and Theology (New York: M. W. Dodd, 1846) p. 304]

The Heidelberg Catechism (1563) of the German Reformed Church in answer to the thirty-seventh question, "What dost thou understand by the word Suffered?" has this answer: "That all the time he lived on earth, but especially at the end of his life, he bore, in body and soul, the wrath of God against the of the whole human race...."[pg 8]

John Calvins Commentaries: (During the later years of his life Calvin wrote his commentaries, which reveal some development of thought, and in which he avoided some of the extremes found in the Institutes.)
John 3:16, he said: ". . . The Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish.'' Concerning the term whosoever in the same verse, he said: "And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the impact of the term world, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favour of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.''

Such an understanding of this verse and the words employed in it is certainly not in keeping with many who claim to be Calvinists, as the following pages will reveal. Another illustration of Calvin's view is to be found in his explanation of:

Matthew 26:28. ". . .This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." He says: "Under the name of many he designates not a part of the world only, but the whole human race" [Underline is mine]

It is in fact it would be better held that Limited atonement was not popular UNTIL the Synod of Dort.

and with just a small addition:
Romans 5:18 says: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Regarding this verse, John Calvin says: "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propoundable to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all [i.e., in their experience]; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him."

Regarding the two occurrences of the phrase "all men," E. H. Gifford comments: "The words all men [in v. 18] must have the same extent in both clauses."

 

[LeBuick]

Christ was obediant unto death and died for whom his Father sent him to die.

Jn 3:16 said his Father so loved the "WORLD". What some don't realize in the doctrine of the elect, the elect were the Jews who were God's chosen people.

 

[Rippon]

The elect does not refer to the Jews only . The elect are His chosen ones from among all nations tribes and tongues .

Allan , good quotes . I'll have to research them at a later time .

Regarding Calvin -- He first wrote the institues at 26 years of age . I think the last time he revised it he was about 50 and it was 5 times the size of the original . So this business of Calvin developing his thoughts to a more mature direction -- i.e. not so predestinarian as in his earleir life is bogus .

 

[Allan]

Regarding Calvin -- He first wrote the institues at 26 years of age . I think the last time he revised it he was about 50 and it was 5 times the size of the original . So this business of Calvin developing his thoughts to a more mature direction -- i.e. not so predestinarian as in his earleir life is bogus .

I didn't say that, All I did was quote him.
But if he changed his veiws by the time he wrote his commentaries from that of his institutes then I am not saying he changed he did. He didn't change his whole view just that most identifiably on 'limited or specific' Atonement.

I agree though as he matured just as we do our understanding of scriptures and God heart in them our direction can alter (whether a little or alot) as our understanding of scriptures become even more clear.

 

[LeBuick]

The elect does not refer to the Jews only . The elect are His chosen ones from among all nations tribes and tongues ..

I think that depends on where you are reading. The concept of the elect began in the OT and at that time it was referring to the Jews. Then we see it in the Gospels but we know the Gospels were primarily regarding the Jews. You also have to consider the version in which you are reading the word.

If by your statement you mean anyone can become one of the elect then I agree. If you have the Calvinistic view that there are elect chosen unto salvation then I very much disagree.

 

[AresMan]

Being moderately--mostly dispensational, I think that "elect" depends upon the context. Why should a simple term like "elect" always refer to the same individual/group?

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
[Here, the nation of Israel is "elect"]

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[These are debatable. Probably the nation of Israel.]

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[Since this is written to the Romans, and speaks of salvation "for us all," the "elect" here should be believers from all kindreds, tongues, and nations.]

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
[The "elect" is Jacob to be the father of the nation of Israel.]

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[The "elect" here are the believing Jews.]

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they [Israel] are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[The "election" of Israel as a nation. They are still "beloved for the fathers' sakes" according to the covenant of God for their kingdom; yet they are enemies of the gospel.]

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[The "elect" are believers--both Jew and Gentile.]

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
[This was a mixed church in Thessalonica. The "elect" here are believers.]

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
[No comment.]

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[This "elect" is probably Israel.]

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
[Obviously, the "elect" here are believers.]

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[Peter's own individual election to be an apostle, or also his election unto salvation.]

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
[Jesus is "elect"]

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[Election unto salvation.]

2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
[Not sure. Maybe this lady was elected by the church for a particular role. Maybe she is elect unto salvation. Maybe this is not a lady, but a metaphor for a church.]

 

[Don]

I'm kind of a simple guy, so I look at this probably too simplistically; but I think the answer to the original question lies in the first verse quoted:

"That whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Scripture also shows us people like King Agrippa, who said, "Almost thou persuadest me."

God would love for the whole world to be saved, and gave His Son so that the whole world could be saved; but there are those that refuse to be saved, that reject God.

Will those that reject the outstretched hand be saved anyway?

 

[AresMan]

God would love for the whole world to be saved, and gave His Son so that the whole world could be saved; but there are those that refuse to be saved, that reject God.

Will those that reject the outstretched hand be saved anyway?

Just wondering, do you believe that God, in His sovereignty is capable of changing the fallen wills of every individual? If so, why doesn't He? He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus in a bright light and a loud voice. Do you think there was any good chance that Saul was going to reject Christ in this encounter? Why does God not give everyone the same revelation? Who could reject Christ if He Himself spoke from heaven in bright light?

 

[Allan]

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
[No comment.]

I had to laugh (loudly) on this one.
When I read it and saw the 'no comment', I looked back and noticed it speaking of angels and it even cause me to do a mental stutter-step. :laugh:

 

[AresMan]

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
[No comment.]

I had to laugh (loudly) on this one.
When I read it and saw the 'no comment', I looked back and noticed it speaking of angels and it even cause me to do a mental stutter-step. :laugh:

I did intend to inject an island of humor in this one part.

 

[Allan]

Just wondering, do you believe that God, in His sovereignty is capable of changing the fallen wills of every individual? If so, why doesn't He? He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus in a bright light and a loud voice. Do you think there was any good chance that Saul was going to reject Christ in this encounter? Why does God not give everyone the same revelation? Who could reject Christ if He Himself spoke from heaven in bright light?

I'm not Don nor will I speak for Don...but if I may?...
God does not change every person because God Sovereignly decreed that man is resposible for what he does with truth. Accept or reject it...those who believe will be saved.

And Yes Paul 'could' have said 'No thanks or beat it' however we do find some things in his conversation that tell us alittle more about that encounter. Paul didn't know who it was that appeared before him but he did call that being Lord, which to the Pharasee is a title ascribed only unto the Lord God and they would give it to no other. Another thing is we do not see Paul actually converted here though possible and most likely probable. But we do see a symbolism of his salvation when he goes to Barnabas's house and the scales fall from his eyes (were he once was blind and now he can see)

Who could reject Christ (or God for that matter) if He Himslef spoke heaven or a bright light? Cain did this, Isreel did this many time. The point is that it has happened over and again.

 

[LeBuick]

I'm not Don nor will I speak for Don...but if I may?...
God does not change every person because God Sovereignly decreed that man is resposible for what he does with truth. Accept or reject it...those who believe will be saved..

You reminded me of a good story the Lord used to demonstrate this. I never thought of this before but I like your response...

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Notice the response was not they are not on the list, he says they must accept or reject the invitation via the preacher...

 

[webdog]

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[This "elect" is probably Israel.]

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
[Obviously, the "elect" here are believers.]

Here you state Israel is God's "elect", but then refer to the "elect" as believers (jew and gentile, I assume). Titus mentions the faith OF the elect, so the "elect" cannot be both jew and gentile here, but believing jews...the same referenced back in 2 Timothy.

 

[MB]

Hi Everyone;
I don't pretend to know all about Calvinism which is why I asked the question. It just seems to me if election to Salvation is particular then shouldn't scripture say so?
I remember reading a while back someone quoted this verse, that some men are created for destruction.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
I wish I had commented on it because we are all sinners and have come short of the glory of God. In other words, aren't we all fitted for destruction, with out Christ?

Aresman asked;

Just wondering, do you believe that God, in His sovereignty is capable of changing the fallen wills of every individual? If so, why doesn't He?

All things are possible with God, so we know He can. The reason He doesn't is not because of God but because some men just won't listen. Actually most won't listen. They tune Him out, an act of the will.

He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus in a bright light and a loud voice. Do you think there was any good chance that Saul was going to reject Christ in this encounter? Why does God not give everyone the same revelation? Who could reject Christ if He Himself spoke from heaven in bright light?

When I first studied Paul's epistles I was a little skeptical of the man. He was a Pharisee and a member of the Sanhedrin. I believe now that the man was sincere and his vision of Christ did convince him of Christ. In act 9:6 he submitted when he asked the Lord "what will you have me do" I believe Paul was already under conviction because in verse 5 Jesus told him that it was hard for him to kick against pricks. Conviction can be like walking through a bunch of rose bushes. Eack conviction tearing at your heart.

We are in awe over this vision Paul had and I've wonderd why the same thing doesn't happen to everyone. In a way it does although not as severe. We first see the light when we listen and if we listen to the word of God and become convinced it's only natural that we would submit as Paul did. Paul still could have refused, but if we are completely convinced that we will be forgiven and that this is what we really want why would we turn it away? Some men feel their sins are to numerous or they are unforgivable which in my opinion, they're not completely convinced.

It can be a hard thing to get people to focus on what the preacher says. Some will soak it up but most have their minds on other things. Sort of like when your wife is complaining about something while your watching the game. To be polite I have to keep asking her what she said. This is when she gets upset and I wonder what it's all about.
When Christ asked the Pharisee's why they couldn't hear Him. It must have been the same thing they weren't listening.
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

Here are a couple of scripture passages that Calvinists cite to demonstrate particular redemption:

Isaiah 53:8-11. Key verse "he shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied.."

In this Messianic prophecy, "he" is God, "his soul" is that of the Messiah, Jesus, referring to the crucifixion. It tells us that God's justice, which demands that every sin be paid for, has been satisfied by Jesus travail on the cross. Since some go to hell, it cannot mean that every sin has been paid for, else they would not go to hell.

One is faced then with interpreting this passage to mean universal salvation, or that Jesus travail atoned for the sins of the elect only.

Matthew 1:21 "He shall save HIS people from their sins..." His people, those who are already his, those whom God has given him.

 

[Allan]

Here are a couple of scripture passages that Calvinists cite to demonstrate particular redemption:

Isaiah 53:8-11. Key verse "he shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied.."

In this Messianic prophecy, "he" is God, "his soul" is that of the Messiah, Jesus, referring to the crucifixion. It tells us that God's justice, which demands that every sin be paid for, has been satisfied by Jesus travail on the cross. Since some go to hell, it cannot mean that every sin has been paid for, else they would not go to hell.

One is faced then with interpreting this passage to mean universal salvation, or that Jesus travail atoned for the sins of the elect only.

Matthew 1:21 "He shall save HIS people from their sins..." His people, those who are already his, those whom God has given him.

Not quite brother.
He (God) shall see the travail of His (Jesus - the sin offering - vs 10) soul and be satisfied... IF in redemption you mean that only certain (that being those believing) are the only ones actaully redeemed, then with question or argument I agree.

If you are referning to atonement being limited then you have a much larger problem with these verses. As Only those who believe are saved by the justifying Blood of Christ as vs 11 in Isa 53 states but you must take into account the WHOLE of the sacrificial aspect to understand the OFFER'ing (couldn't resist :laugh.

One of the main reasons it HAS to be this way for specific atonment is that not one drop of the blood of Christ would be wasted on one who would not come to Him.
Yet in the first place there is not one peice of scriptural support for this. However there is scriptural support for the converse of this. That Christs blood though applied to some will be discarded and trampled upon by others. The atonment is NOT about the AMOUNT of blood but that that it was pleasing and acceptable to God. Let us Look back at Lev 4 concerning the sin offering to which Isaiah 53:10 equates Christ Jesus.

The priests were to kill a young bullock and of the blood - dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it 7 times before the veil, and place some on the tips of the horns of the Altar of Incence. VS 6 and 7a - This shows that Man can now come to into Gods presence and that God will now hear mans prayers. But what about the rest (the larger portion) of the blood remaining. What was the priest to do with this. Vs 7b - He was to pour it out at the base of the alter. This is where the people came up to altar and Priests walked around. The larger portion of that blood was poured on the ground to be walked on or better trampled under dirty or unclean feet as though it was unholy. Remember this cause I'll come back to it...

Now, granted these verses deal with PERSONAL sacrifice for atonment but look a few verses over in the same chapter (vs 13) if ALL the people... Now it is in reference to EVERYONE of Israel and we see it is the exact same thing. Now WILL EVERYONE in Israel be atoned for?? What about those Israelites who are worshipping false gods or idols or even living in sin when this atoning sacrifice is made. Will they be atoned for as well??? NOPE! The application of this atonment is based on whether the individual accepts this sacrifice on their behalf because they know they have NEED of it. It is Then that the atonment is applied to person though it is OFFERED to and for ALL of Israel.
However, it is specifically referencing the absoluteness and perfection of this sacrifice given to God on behalf of ISRAEL in the literal sense. The phrase "my people" (vs 8) needs to be remembered in context as the "my" is the prophet Isaiah NOT God.

Remember that trampling of the blood at the foot of the altar I mentioned earlier. This is why the blood was poured out and that which was poured was the larger portion of the blood that was used to make atonement. It was all good enough to make atonment but much of it was going to be trampled upon by those who don't think they are in NEED of that sacrifice for them.
If you look at Heb 10:29 we can see a shadowing of this of this same thing as the writter of Hebrews speaks of UNBELIEF when he states:
How much sorer punishment, suppose ye,shall he be thought worthy who hath TRODDEN UNDER FOOT the Son of God, and hath counted the BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, wherewith he was sanctified and UNHOLY thing and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace.

Grace allows the Sin Offering to not only be made but made to all who will partake as it did with the Sin offering of Israel. God be praised He knows ALL who will but He also knows ALL who will not. Therefore due to that Atonment sacrifice being applied to those who see their lack and error and acknowledge their need THEY being "the Many" (as described in context of sacrifice in question within Isa 53:11) are Justified Fully. Yet those NOT justified by the application of thereof but who trample it instead...what sorer punishment do you think awaits them. For as the scripture continues in Heb 10 "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God" Something they in their despite to His 'hoped' was not true.

So, Yes - His suffering was for ALL who will believe (the Chosen or Elect) as He is their sacrifice that appeases the judgment of God to their justification. BUT - the sacrifice was offered up for ALL Men who were willing to accept it. This is important in understand the sacrifices and why the sacrifices were given; that we might understand the foreshadowing of what they mean of, in, about, and through Christ.

IMO of course.

PS>
Your Mat verse - It is about Israel in context and not All those who will be saved. Though it can be used to show the allusion toward the same. Much like Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost - Is a direct reference to Israel and not the Church. But we see Jesus even make that allusion here as He states I have other sheep NOT OF THIS fold. The fold in which He at that moment was seeking out.

 

[Don]

I'm not Don nor will I speak for Don...but if I may?...
God does not change every person because God Sovereignly decreed that man is resposible for what he does with truth. Accept or reject it...those who believe will be saved.

And Yes Paul 'could' have said 'No thanks or beat it' however we do find some things in his conversation that tell us alittle more about that encounter. Paul didn't know who it was that appeared before him but he did call that being Lord, which to the Pharasee is a title ascribed only unto the Lord God and they would give it to no other. Another thing is we do not see Paul actually converted here though possible and most likely probable. But we do see a symbolism of his salvation when he goes to Barnabas's house and the scales fall from his eyes (were he once was blind and now he can see)

Who could reject Christ (or God for that matter) if He Himslef spoke heaven or a bright light? Cain did this, Isreel did this many time. The point is that it has happened over and again.

What Allen said. Could God make all of us accept Him? Of course.

But that necessarily leads to the question: Why didn't He in the first place, with Adam and Eve?

We have plenty of scriptural evidence of those that didn't accept Him.

And we have the parable of the rich man indicating what awaits for those that reject Him.

Christ died for all those that believe on Him; those that don't believe will not have everlasting life, but have the wrath of God upon them, are condemned, and shall perish (John 3:16, 18, 36).

 

[Tom Butler]

Not quite brother.
He (God) shall see the travail of His (Jesus - the sin offering - vs 10) soul and be satisfied... IF in redemption you mean that only certain (that being those believing) are the only ones actaully redeemed, then with question or argument I agree.

If you are referring to atonement being limited then you have a much larger problem with these verses. As Only those who believe are saved by the justifying Blood of Christ as vs 11 in Isa 53 states but you must take into account the WHOLE of the sacrificial aspect to understand the OFFER'ing (couldn't resist :laugh.
.

Allan, again I've shortened your response, but the whole thing is on post #17, for all who want to see context.

You are, of course, stating the popular view that Christ's atonement was sufficient for all, but efficient only for those who believe, the elect.

Regarding the OT sacrifice analogy you cited (see post #17) I note that the sacrifice was not for all people, but only for the children of Irael. It was limited to a particular people over whom God set his love.

Regarding the other sheep not of this fold, are we agreed that this refers to Gentiles? Do you find it interesting, as I do, that Jesus called them sheep, even though they were not yet believers? This is not on point, just an interesting observation.

But to the point, right before that, in John 10:15, Jesus said "...I lay down my life for the sheep." Sounds to me like the atonement was only for the sheep.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

When the devil braught scripture to Jesus, Jesus didn't dispute the scripure, but presented other scripture.

We can't live on little pieces of God's word even in a little context, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

The devil will deceive you by little pieces of bread, but keep your focus on Jesus and He will not disappoint you.