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Featured Did Christ Provide Sinners Only a "Chance"?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Nov 12, 2022.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    According to some people, Christ died to give all a chance of being saved! I do not know that I hate anything more in my soul than to hear that. It makes Jesus Christ so little - that He should do so much, and after all only to get us a chance of being saved. Why, if a man is set up in business, you see how often it happens that he fails in it; and if man cannot manage the paltry things of time and sense without being insolvent, what will he do with eternal realities? And if you come a little closer, when God "made man upright" and he had no sinful nature, what did he do with his innocence? He lost it all! And yet poor presumptuous man has the vanity to think you and I could manage the chance of being saved. What an insult it is to the Lord Jesus Christ to fix the eternal honor of God upon chance, and that chance to be managed by a poor sinful creature who is tumbling into half a dozen holes every hour of his life! NO, NO. Thanks be to God for immortal realities and certainties.

    - William Gadsby, rest at Why Did Christ Die? - William Gadsby (pristinegrace.org)
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A shollow understanding of Christ paying for the sins of only His sheep.
    Romans 6:23. Romans 14:9, Philippians 2:10-11, ". . . That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. . . ."
     
    #2 37818, Nov 12, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2022
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  3. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Active Member

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    I don't believe that Christ died to give all a "chance" to be saved. What I think is difficult is that when you combine a particular redemption with a very high view of determinism. Because then you can make a case that God himself, by his own decree, begins as a starting point with it being His primary will that most men will go to Hell. And the primary and sovereign reason is that Jesus did not die for their sins. Whereas men like Edwards seemed to view this more as follows: Men are natural enemies of God because of their deliberate rebellion and sin. They have no tendency to change this and no desire to stop this animosity towards God. Therefore, if God sovereignly chooses to pick out some of these to save, based on His choice alone, and let the others go in their chosen path then he has done no one any wrong. The atonement is limited and particular, but the primary reason emphasized for this is that God is doing a great kindness to those saved. When determinism is emphasized so much that you make the PRIMARY reason someone doesn't get saved the fact that Christ did not die for them you cannot help in the back of your mind at least thinking it's unfair.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There's also a disconnect between the OP title and the OP post.

    The title asks "Did Christ provide sinners ONLY a chance?" but the OP argues that Christ did not give all a chance.
     
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  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    There is no disconnect. It is pointing out that the universal atonement folks are claiming that Christ alone is not sufficient, that the sinner must add something to the finished work of Christ in order to be saved.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of what God does, He is not doing wrong. God answers to no higher authority.

    Regardless of what God does, for any mere creature to claim that God is unfair is so full of human vanity that it is almost indescribable.

    I direct your attention, if you are interested, to this article:

    Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist - Brandan Kraft (pristinegrace.org)
     
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Active Member

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    This is true but I don't want to ever misrepresent God's motives to other fellow humans. I'm just saying that to present the truths of God's salvation plan in a way that makes it seem like the PRIMARY motivation of God was to damn a bunch of people before time began risks misrepresenting God. If he did that it is of course alright because he is God but there are a lot of scriptures showing God's unbelievable patience and love to sinners. I say like Edwards that what should be emphasized is that you have a bunch of rebellious sinners who usually develop open animosity toward God. Some others keep it more internal and secret but the monergistic choosing by God for salvation is from those groups of underserving people. If that is true why is it not better to explain it that way than to just say that God probably determined beforehand to damn you.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What I mean is many Calvinists (perhaps most at one time) believed that Christ died to give all a chance of salvation but they did not believe Christ provided sinners only a chance (they believed in a general but legitimate offering of salvation and a paticular atonement).

    The OP erroneously assumes that a universal atonement equates to universal salvation.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not. How did you come up with that idea?
     
  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Active Member

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    Ken. Thanks for the link. I read it fast because I have to go somewhere but it's bookmarked. It explains a lot. I believe in a true offer of salvation, would be infralapsarian, believe in duty faith, believe that good works and progressive sanctification are means of assurance, and that the Law is a rule of life. I became a Calvinist due to reading lots of Puritans and would be one except I still think it's OK to have fun. But that's a good link.
     
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  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    And toward the non-elect we read. "God is angry with the wicked every day." - Psalm 7:11

    God is absolutely, totally sovereign. I try not to say that God is anything less than that.
     
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I used to would have said I was infralapsarian, but had not really given all that much thought to the subject. After I did think about it, and then read Brandan Kraft's article, I switched to the supralapsarian position.
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I came up with it from the article attached. It is from William Gadsby. I am very familiar with Gadsby.
     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    So you can't provide proof in the OP to attempt to prove your point, eh?
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sure - and I apologize if it appeared that I was suggesting that you may believe the logical conclusion to universal atonement is universal salvation. Glad you corrected that.
     
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  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    If you hold to the determinism as found in your LBCF or the DoG then it will lead to a version of God that has decreed the sin that man commits and then judges them for it.
    You refer to man going by his own path but under calvinism that is not possible. But then again I guess it all depends on what version of calvinism one holds to.
     
  17. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Active Member

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    It does, as the link to the article Ken gives above.
     
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  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    That is why it is so hard to deal with a calvinist, your never sure what they actually believe and how much of the bible they actually trust.
     
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689, Article IX.


    1. God has indued the will of man, by nature, with liberty and the power to choose and to act upon his choice. This free will is neither forced nor destined by any necessity of nature to do good or evil. [Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; DEuteronomy 30:19].


    2. Man in his state of innocence, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was pleasing to God [Ecclesiastes 7:29], but he was unstable so that he might fall from this condition [Genesis 3:6]..


    3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the good which accompanies salvation [Romans 5:6; 8:7]. As a natural man, he is altogether opposed to spiritual good and dead in sin [Ephesians 2:1-5].He is not able by His own strength to convert himself or to prepare himself for conversion [Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44].


    4. When God converts a sinner and translates him into a state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin [Colossians 1:13; John 8:36] and by grace alone, He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good [Philippians 2::13]. But because of his remaining corruptions, he does not only 9or perfectly will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil [Romans 7:15-23].


    5. The will of man will only be made perfectly and immutably free to will good alone in the state of glory [Ephesians 4:13]..
     
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  20. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Active Member

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    That shouldn't be the case any more. The link from Ken's post above gives you a clear picture of Calvinism at it's more deterministic side and the confession above posted by Alan, which is almost word for word the same as the WCF, gives you the view of the Puritan's, early Calvinistic English Baptists, and Presbyterians.

    The same range occurs with free will folks. Some are like the moderate Calvinists in that the work of the Spirit is essential for conversion with the difference being that grace can be resisted. Others believe that everyone has enough "light" that they can on their own hear the gospel and believe. Others believe that there is power in the word itself.

    Also, notice that in the above post from Alan there are scripture references for each point. You may not agree with them or the Calvinist conclusions but it is not fair to say they don't trust the Bible.
     
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