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Featured Did God Make Angels to Be Creative Beings?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Scripture More Accurately, Jan 17, 2021.

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  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  3. Not sure

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  1. Scripture More Accurately

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    1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

    In this text, the Spirit reveals that people will depart from the faith because they give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. We thus learn that demons have originated doctrines intended to lead people to depart from the faith.

    God did not give these demons these doctrines, and these demons did not learn these doctrines from humans. Explicit biblical revelation about doctrines originated by demons shows that demons are angelic beings who are creative.
     
  2. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Angels do not have free will, thus not creative. Humans have free will, and given the ability to be creative.
     
  3. Scripture More Accurately

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    Where does the Bible teach that angels do not have free will?
     
  4. Larry the Logger

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    1 Kings 22:20-23; looks like the Lord was looking for a creative angel. And, He found one. The creativity didn't work out too well for Ahab.
     
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  5. Scripture More Accurately

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    This was the exact passage that I have been thinking through for the past 35 minutes or so to show that the Bible does teach that angels have free will!

    In fact, this passage also teaches directly that angels are creative:

    1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

    Different angels responded to the Lord in different ways in response to the question that He asked. That plainly shows their creativity because they came up with different proposals.

    Moreover, when an angel came forth as a volunteer, he was exercising his free will.

    1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

    When he said that he would be the one to persuade Ahab to fall, we do not read that the Lord specified to him exactly what he was to do and what he was to say, etc. in persuading Ahab to go to his demise. Instead, the Lord asked the angel how the angel planned to accomplish his task!

    The angel answered that he would do so through the message that he as a lying spirit would utter through the mouths of all of Ahab's prophets (22:22). His answer shows that his plan was of his own devising and was not something that the Lord told him to do.
     
    #45 Scripture More Accurately, Jan 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
  6. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    In the book of Job, Satan could not carry out his destructive thoughts on Job without God's permission. Even in Revelation 13, Satan was allowed, it does not say Satan did as he pleased. Satan can think and make decisions. He cannot act on any of those thoughts. Angels were created to carry out certain task for God's purposes.

    Yes they can think. A third of the angels chose to rebel, and God allowed it.
     
  7. Scripture More Accurately

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    Actually, in Job, it was God who twice directed Satan's attention to Job. Yes, God limited the extent of what Satan could do, but He does so with all His creation, including all humans. No created being does anything except what God allows him to do.

    Furthermore, God did not tell Satan exactly what he was supposed to do to Job. He allowed Satan great latitude to do as he wished within the limits that God set on him, which shows that Satan did have a free will within the limitations that God placed on him.

    If God's limiting Satan in that manner shows that Satan does not have a free will, then no human has a free will either in that sense.
     
  8. Larry the Logger

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    What did Satan use when he fell per Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28? What did one third of the angels use when they followed Satan in Revelation 12:4?
     
  9. Larry the Logger

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    Yes, I love God's irony wrt Ahab. Jezebel used lying and deception to get whiny-butt Ahab a vineyard belonging to Naboth; a man faithful to God with his inheritance. The reversal to Ahab, who ignored God's covenants, was genius. Ahab still had a choice to turn back to God after Micaiah's prophecy. Had he done that, I don't think the random arrow incident (1 Kings 22:34) would have happened. Ahab chose poorly. The lying angel had a pretty good hunch that he would. The other angels, maybe not so much.
     
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    The question should have clarified what you meant by "creative", but now that I see your clarifying posts, I answer, "yes".

    In fact, they are more creative than man, for it is written that even pre-fall man was made of God a little lower than the angels (Ps.8:5/Heb.2:7) and they excel in strength (Psa.103:20).
     
    #50 George Antonios, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Just a note: Lucifer's fall in Isaiah 14 is a prophecy of what will happen in the future (as it matches, among other things, Daniel 8's description of the antichrist in the tribulation), not a description of what happened in the past, although the passage does shed light on the past as a second-edge application of the sword of the word of God.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you mean like word of faith espouses to here?
     
  13. Larry the Logger

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    Thanks for the attention to detail, and I agree with the future look see. Looking at the interlinear on Biblos, "are fallen" in vs 12 and "have said" in vs 13, says the verbs are qal perfect and past tense. So, that's why I used it. But either way, Satan definitely had and will have a choice. His last one will be something to behold at the end of the millennial kingdom. Fast forward to Revelation 20:7-10 and that last decision per Daniel 8 doesn't end well for him; not even a rubber chicken dinner or gold watch at his permanent retirement.
     
    #53 Larry the Logger, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  14. Scripture More Accurately

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    I do not know what you are talking about in this comment.
     
  15. Scripture More Accurately

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    Interestingly, 4 people so far have said that God did not make angels to be creative beings. It would be interesting to hear more about their views, especially in light of the multiple lines of evidence that I have provided so far.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They claim that God gave us his power to speak and create things to happen due to our faith and our words!
     
  17. Scripture More Accurately

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    No, I reject that notion categorically and do not believe that the Bible teaches any such thing.
     
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  18. Scripture More Accurately

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    Some hold that the references to angels playing trumpets (and other musical instruments) in Revelation are not to be taken literally. Long before God inspired the writing of that book, God had provided inspired revelation that cannot be taken figuratively that also speaks of the sounding of a trumpet:

    Exodus 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

    This passage makes clear that no humans were or could have been responsible for the sounding of the trumpet from Mount Sinai on that occasion. It also makes clear that a trumpet would be sounded and not just that a trumpet-like sound would emanate from the mountain. Exodus 19:16-19 records the fulfillment of this instruction by God and the sounding of the trumpet (19:16, 19).

    Because other passages record that Moses received the Law through the agency of angels (Acts 7:53, Gal. 3:19), we know that angels were present when the Law was given at Sinai. An angel may very well have sounded the trumpet recorded in Exodus 19.

    In any case, either God Himself sounded the trumpet on this occasion or an angel sounded it. Either way, the passage proves the existence of a supernatural being producing a sound on a musical instrument.

    This passage supports taking the passages in Revelation that speak of angels sounding trumpets as literal statements speaking of angelic beings playing musical instruments, which implies their being creative beings.
     
    #58 Scripture More Accurately, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Those who hold the view that the Bible is not to be taken literally, are not to be taken literally.
     
  20. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Free will is not being coerced into something.


    "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion"


    Satan was in no way able to just walk up to Job and do as he pleased. Satan asked if he could do certain things, and God said OK. Satan is allowed to test Christians, but he does not have a license to act according to free will. A human has boundaries. They cannot just fly through space in just their body. Where as, an angel just moves through space without any limits other than a set course that they cannot deviate from.

    Angels have to act according to the task God set them to. A third of the angels are bound right now, as they wished to no longer do what God willed, so they now, cannot do anything.

    Humans have free will to destroy creation, or have dominion over creation. Of course right now, there are some created things like covid, that can get out of hand. Wild animals are also not under any constraint when it comes to placing limits on human free will. The curse of sin brings a clash between who can control who.
     
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