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Featured Did Jesus teach that it is wrong to ....

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ktn4eg, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg New Member

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    .... defend yourself by using a man made weapon?

    In another BB thread, one of the posts made a statement to the effect that Jesus never advocated taking up man made weapons for self defense.

    This person claimed that by so doing, it would be a violation of Jesus's teachings about "turning the other cheek," and to "love thy neighbor."

    Do you think that Jesus actually meant that a saved person should never use a weapon (be it a sword or a gun or any other kind of man made "weapon") to defend her/himself?

    I would appreciate reading your thoughts on this, and especially if you can supply some Bible references (particularly those found in the NT) that support your position on this issue.

    Thank you.
     
  2. Judith

    Judith Member

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    I think it is going to be difficult to offer many clear scriptures from the NT on this however the OT is full of them and the NT says All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2Tim 3:16)

    We are told in Romans 13:4
    For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    So if God supports justice by government and some in government are Christians who would carry this out it would be reasonable to conclude that we can take what ever action we need to protect our immediate need.

    Also in Romans 12:18 we are told;
    If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

    Notice it is as much as lies in us. In other words don't start stuff and don't escalate stuff. However there are those who will not allow a sleeping dog to lie and we must take some action.

    That being said based on the OT it is clear that God does not expect us to be hold to passivism.
     
  3. HAMel

    HAMel Well-Known Member

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    "Then said he unto them, But now, he that has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag: and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36
     
  4. Jkdbuck76

    Jkdbuck76 Well-Known Member

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    All the Christian brothers and sisters in law enforcement are in trouble, I guess.
     
  5. blackbird

    blackbird Administrator
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    Using a modern slang------Jesus' disciples "carried"!!!!!

    :wavey::wavey::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  6. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Well-Known Member

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    Don't know who this other person is - haven't seen the thread. But it's apparent that this person doesn't know the context of "turn the other cheek" nor "love thy neighbor" nor why Jesus was led to teach those concepts.

    Gotta leave for work.....
     
  7. HAMel

    HAMel Well-Known Member

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    Using a modern slang------Jesus' disciples "carried"!!!!!

    Bumper sticker

    "God made all men. Sam Colt made all men equal"
     
  8. prophet

    prophet Active Member

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    Luk 11:21
    21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

    How about this.
    Arms to defend your possessions, not just your person.
    Because...that same God said this:
    Pro 1:10-19
    10 My son, if sinners entice thee,
    consent thou not.
    11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood,
    let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
    12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave;
    and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
    13 We shall find all precious substance,
    we shall fill our houses with spoil:
    14 Cast in thy lot among us;
    let us all have one purse:
    15 My son, walk not thou in the way with them;
    refrain thy foot from their path:
    16 For their feet run to evil,
    and make haste to shed blood.
    17 Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
    18 And they lay wait for their own blood;
    they lurk privily for their own lives.
    19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain;
    which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.

    These people are lurking.
    Theives that steal, for any reason other than starvation, are murderers and forfeit their own life, when they attempt to rob you. They will kill you, for your goods. You have absolutely not 1 single reason to believe otherwise.

    And Jesus built upon this commonly understood principle, to tell His parable.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member

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    John the Baptist told the soldiers NOT to stop using weapons and defending themselves, but to be content with wages...

    Didn't God in esther command his people to defend themselves against attack?

    think question should be: Does God permit use of violence in self defense and in a Just war?

    Would say the bible supprts BOTH!

    And as made on other thread on this, God sees dsuffering fir sake of christ JUST because I am a Christian much differently from me or my family getting attacked by someone due to Him acting as a sinner in dallen world, attacking me without knowing if a Christian or not!
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member

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    There is a time for defensive action.

    Sometimes it means walking away. (answer not a fool)

    Sometimes it means stepping in the way. (answer a fool)

    If I recall the correct thread, the question was not so much over defensive as offensive - in particular, that of assassination.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member

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    actually, think it was could a Christian even use force to self defended himself or oters, would that violate showing 'love of jesus?"
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member

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    One of the greatest testimonies of defending others:

    Medal of Honor winner

    Folks who don't know this story, have missed a great lesson in a believer who stands by their principles and defends others.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member

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    IF Christians forbidden to be in the military, as might have to use force...

    We might all be still speaking the King's English, as that would have meant our commanding general/first president would have been on the sidelines!
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member

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    This view ignores the fact that Jesus took up a man-made weapon to cast the money changing thieves out of His "Father's house," a clear case of using a weapon and being violent to defend one's home.

    It also ignores this statement by Jesus in John 18:36--"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
    The blow in Christ's statement about turning the other cheek was a slap, which is an insult more than a physical attack. In sumo wrestling, those huge men (I've met some) use a full power slap called a tsuppari, and it never, ever injures the other wrestler. So Christ there was not saying not to defend one's self against a physical attack.

    As for loving one's neighbor, if a thief comes in my house, I consider it unloving not to send him to the penitentiary (or hospital) where he can meditate on the wrongs of his life! :smilewinkgrin:
    So, my answer is that not only should we use a weapon to defend ourselves and our family, we are wrong not to!

    "If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (Prov. 24:11-12).

    "Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight" (Ps. 144:1).
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Helpful post John!
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member

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    Glad to help! :wavey:
     
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member

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    I don't know that you read the whole story.

    No one forbid the man to be in the military.

    The man showed tremendous courage under fire defending his fellow soldiers.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstood me!

    was saying that IF christians could not use weapons, be in military as that OP suggested, then we would still be under british rule, as General George would have been footnote in history!
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member

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    You are so correct in both me misreading you, and in your statement.

    Thank you for being patient and redirecting me into agreement!
     
  20. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I do not know about the implications of being in the military or of historical events, but I found this writing very good on explaining the subject of the swords and the disciples when Jesus was being arrested.

    This is from Ben Witherington’s blog post. This is his defense of Luke 22.36-38, I don’t know if I agree with it yet, but I figured we could post it here, and we can benefit from it:

    What about the famous text in Lk. 22.36-38 where Jesus seems to advise the disciples to go out and obtain a weapon? Again context is king here. Remember this is the same Jesus who: 1) advised that those who live by the sword will die by the sword and 2) who immediately put a stop to Peter’s violence against the high priest’s slave, and indeed reversed it’s effects by healing the man’s ear. So what is the meaning of this little story, taking into account the larger context of Jesus’ teaching? Vs. 37 is the key where Jesus quotes Is. 53.12—“he was numbered with the transgressors”. Jesus is saying to the disciples—you must fulfill your role as transgressors of what I have taught you!!! They must play the part of those who do exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught them in the Sermon on the Mount. The disciples become transgressors by seeking out weapons and then seeking to use them. This much is perfectly clear from the context for the disciples then go on to say “look Lord here is two swords”. They already have such weapons and Jesus responds in disgust to the fact that they are already transgressing his principles of non-violence by responding “that’s enough” (of this nonsense).

    Clearly, Jesus knew that two swords would not be enough to hold off a Roman legion, so we must take his response as highly ironic not as straight forward. Either he says ironically “oh that will be plenty”, or more likely as I have suggested, he means “that will be enough” of this foolishness. Either way, there is absolutely no endorsement here by Jesus of his followers using weapons. Carrying weapons makes them fulfill the role of transgressors, as the citation of Is. 53.12 makes evident.
     
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