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Did Rick Warren really say this?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 1, 2006.

  1. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    Yes, you did. And then you said it again. </font>[/QUOTE]My original statement:
    Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
    That Jesus Christ is God, that salvation is dependent on repentance and the Truth of God's Word - like sanctification, justification, living a holy life and repentant life - not man's desire to reinvent what God said.

    Initial salvation is dependent on repentance and the Truth of God's Word. Which is exactly what salvation is. The Holy Spirit convicts [grace] knowledge is given that Jesus is God and the Sacrifice for sin [grace] the heart responds in repentance [God given faith] and then confesses [God given faith] and receives forgiveness [faith and grace]. Living a sanctified and holy life is continuing salvation. God's grace is the gift of salvation without merit, without works. Repentance is not a work made of human hands. It is the intent and contriteness of the heart toward God.

    I am amazed at the lack of theology present here on this thread. At least I have a better understanding how people are misled by the likes of RW.
     
  2. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    gb wrote:
    So according to you a child could not be saved because he does not
    understand repentance and confession?

    Before you proclaim what you think Warren believes what not read what he
    reads on the church's website.

    ABOUT ETERNITY
    Man was created to exist forever. He will either exist eternally separated
    from God by sin, or in union with God through forgiveness and salvation.
    To be eternally separated from God is Hell. To be eternally in union with
    Him is eternal life. Heaven and Hell are places of eternal existence.

    ABOUT JESUS CHRIST
    Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is co-equal with the Father. Jesus
    lived a sinless human life and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice
    for the sins of all men by dying on a cross. He arose from the dead after
    three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to
    Heaveńs glory and will return again to earth to reign as King of
    kings, and Lord of lords.

    ABOUT SALVATION
    Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by
    self-improvement or good works. Only by trusting in Jesus Christ as
    God́s offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sińs penalty.
    Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by
    faith.

    ABOUT ETERNAL SECURITY
    Because God gives man eternal life through Jesus Christ, the believer is
    secure in salvation for eternity. Salvation is maintained by the grace and
    power of God, not by the self-effort of the Christian. It is the grace and
    keeping power of God that gives this security.
    [end qote]


    First of all, a child who does not realize that he/she has sinned and cannot consciously confess to Jesus Christ has not had a "salvation" experience. To have the faith of a child, means in a childlike way - not to actually be a child. Children have an inate trust factor that adults do not - to this Jesus was referring.

    Secondly, be still my heart - a whole 4 HOUR CLASS!!! What a committment, what discipline Whew! and to sign a card . . . monumental . . . Basic Biblical principles?

    ABOUT ETERNITY:
    forgiveness and salvation from what?
    no mention of repentance, blood sacrifice,cross, suffering.
    hell is separation from God - yes, but it is also eternal punishment. what does separation from God mean to an unbeliever? not a thing.

    ABOUT JESUS CHRIST:
    co-equal with God?????? Looks like we have Jesus as "a" god. hanging with wimber will do that to ya.
    uhhh . . . errr . . . the cross paid for sin in full, not the resurrection. The resurrection = eternal life.

    ABOUT SALVATION:
    Jesus is God's "offer" of forgiveness?????? I am speechless . . .

    ABOUT ETERNAL SECURITY:
    I won't even go there except to say that the grace of God to the believer includes submission of will and life. Without the acceptance and submisson of discipline and correction of God's grace, one is considered a bastard and not a son.

    Thanx for sharing the 4 spiritual heresies. You only confirmed what I aleady knew. The man is corrupt.
     
  3. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    THE PURPOSE DRIVEN HOSTAGE


    By Paul Proctor March 26, 2005 NewsWithViews.com

    A friend called me on my cell phone a couple of weeks ago to share some amazing quotes from the Purpose Driven hostage shortly after her story broke and shot to the top of the human-interest charts. Before he could even finish reading the pertinent excerpts from the article he found, we both agreed that those who stood to benefit the most from this “miracle of God” would exploit it to the very limits of believability and in doing so, further legitimize Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven products, now captivating and confusing the spiritually lame, biblically ignorant and ecclesiastically ambitious around the world.

    Of course we all know that nothing sells books, tickets, movies, merchandise, programs, popcorn, cotton candy and Kleenex like a life and death drama with a happy ending. That’s why so many victims and perpetrators who come out of obscurity to suddenly find themselves before the TV cameras end up in some carnivalesque corner of the entertainment industry trying to capitalize on their newfound notoriety and turn it into a cash-producing and/or agenda-advancing career.

    If history has taught us anything, it is that pop culture products, performances and personalities don’t have to be good, credible, accurate or even real as long as they stimulate and motivate the masses. That’s why the most popular household appliance sold in America today is not the dishwasher or the clothes washer, but the brainwasher; that big screen fantasy machine that talks you through the highs and lows of life each day like an electronic psychiatrist, while you recline on the couch for hours on end.

    When you consider that five corporations control today’s mainstream media, it’s much easier to understand how a nation and even the world can be controlled into thinking, speaking and doing whatever the architects of illusion desire.
    Things just don’t happen by chance, they happen by design; and the powers-that-be have carefully planned your future and mine from cradle to grave. By way of seduction and suggestion we are steered deeper into a socialized slavery each day while laughing and crying our way through the facts, feelings and fantasies of a perceived reality called “television.” Their slogan may be: “you decide” but rest assured, they’ve already decided FOR YOU what will and won’t be seen on TV and what commentary and captions will accompany the compelling images they provide.

    I’d wager to say that very few, if any Purpose Driven puppets ever really heard or understood what was being taught them in Ashley Smith’s emotionally charged interview as recorded by CNN. Most, I suspect, were just elated to learn that the “People’s Pastor” had finally been validated in secular society by a Purpose Driven “miracle.”
    But, now that the euphoria has subsided somewhat, look again and reconsider carefully what she actually said:

    SMITH: “We went to my room. And I asked him if I could read. He said, ‘What do you want to read?’ ‘Well, I have a book in my room.’ So I went and got it. I got my Bible. And I got a book called ‘The Purpose-Driven Life.’ I turned it to the chapter that I was on that day. It was Chapter 33. And I started to read the first paragraph of it. After I read it, he said, ‘Stop, will you read it again?’ I said, ‘Yeah. I'll read it again.’ So I read it again to him. It mentioned something about what you thought your purpose in life was. What were you -- what talents were you given? What gifts were you given to use? And I asked him what he thought. And he said, ‘I think it was to talk to people and tell them about you.’"

    You see, Ashley made a significant choice that day between the Word of God and the words of Warren. Like millions of others who keep Bibles around the house for a second opinion, she chose to read to her captor from Warren’s book instead of God's Word. And because she made that choice and is still alive today, Ashley is now a hero in the eyes of a nation; and the media has proudly declared hers to be a salvation story and a miracle of deliverance from Almighty God.

    I dare say if she had read something Jesus Christ had said, quoting scripture to Mr. Nichols from her Bible and lived to tell about it, the networks wouldn’t have even allowed her on the air, much less made a big deal out of it. What was the subtle message the architects were teaching us?

    Be a hero! – Be Purpose Driven!

    No wonder sales of the PDL book spiked! Who wouldn’t want to be a TV hero and a media darling?

    When Brian Nichols told Ashley that he thought his purpose was “to talk to people and tell them about you,” I’m sure that made her feel very special; but the absurd implication of that statement seemed to escape most teary-eyed Christians I know; that God had four people shot dead at the courthouse that day in Atlanta just so Nichols could spend the rest of his life telling everyone about Ashley Smith. If it hasn’t registered yet, that’s horizontal worship, aka: idolatry; and THAT, my friends, is what the church growth movement is all about; worshiping one another and our collective achievements in the name of Jesus. That's why the emphasis is always on relationships rather than righteousness.

    SMITH: “But after we began to talk, he said he thought that I was an angel sent from God. And that I was his sister and he was my brother in Christ. And that he was lost and God led him right to me to tell him that he had hurt a lot of people.”

    Well, in spite of Brian Nichols’ thoughts and feelings, Ashley is not “an angel sent from God.” She is quite human and has, as Warren admitted on Larry King Live, a less than angelic past. In addition, Mr. Nichols might consider himself to be a “lost brother in Christ,” but I assure you; THERE IS NO SUCH THING. He is either lost OR he is a brother in Christ. He cannot be both simultaneously. Furthermore, a brother in Christ does not gun down innocent people in a court of law, flee for his life, take hostages and threaten to kill them.

    SMITH: "I said, 'Do you believe in miracles? Because if you don't believe in miracles -- you are here for a reason. You're here in my apartment for some reason. You got out of that courthouse with police everywhere, and you don't think that's a miracle? You don't think you're supposed to be sitting right here in front of me listening to me tell you, you know, your reason here?' I said, 'You know, your miracle could be that you need to -- you need to be caught for this,' Smith continued. 'You need to go to prison and you need to share the Word of God with them, with all the prisoners there.'"

    This is not the Gospel of Christ being shared, friends; this is a frightened woman appealing to a desperate man through his ego, using anything she can think of including God, sympathy, flattery, family, food and friendship to win his trust and just stay alive. Under the circumstances, I don’t fault her for any of this; but let’s just call it what it is. I also don’t fault either of them for their confusion about God, His miracles and His purpose for their lives, considering their obvious lack of biblical knowledge, discernment and understanding.

    I do, however, find it absolutely outrageous that a degree-holding, seminary educated, mega-church pastor like Rick Warren would take advantage of this terrible tragedy and the gross ignorance and confusion of those involved and twist it into something he can use to plug his book, his programs and his upcoming faith-based global socialist P.E.A.C.E. Plan! That is unacceptable behavior and he ought to be ashamed!

    The real travesty that day was this: The Gospel of Christ was not proclaimed, no one repented and no one was saved; at least not spiritually, which would have been a miracle indeed. According to the reports and interviews I’ve read, Smith and Nichols discussed a lot of heartwarming things in their lives but not Jesus Christ, the cross, His death, burial, resurrection, shed blood or redemptive plan for mankind. From what I can ascertain, their focus was, like Warren’s, on a Purpose Driven Life, not eternal life in Christ.
    Nichols did not surrender to Jesus Christ or anyone else for that matter; he was turned in to the authorities by his hostage and taken into custody without incident a short time later. The reason he did not kill her was because she kept her cool and chose to be kind, helpful and cooperative as a survival mechanism; something ANYONE can do, Christian or not.

    It just blows my mind that the church today thinks they have a monopoly on kindness and generosity; that displaying such things to strangers somehow MEANS you’re an official “child of God! This is the counterfeit Christianity that the world is just wild about today; the new paradigm for the postmodern church: a religion of relationships, social service and psychology, offered up in the name of our Homeboy, Jesus.

    This kind of Christianity doesn’t even need a Divine Savior or the Word of God, and is slowly and subtly replacing both at church with what amounts to religious volunteerism – a politically correct value system and service organization comprised of smiley-faced worker bees that embrace no real doctrine, theology or belief beyond a luv for fellow man.

    For a kind word and a drink you can get THAT at any bar in town! One of the most loyal, unpretentious, unselfish people I know in this life is an atheist. He would give you or me the shirt off his back and do almost anything for anyone, yet he claims no God exists. When is the dumbed down church of horizontal worship and service going to wake up from this Purpose Driven delusion and realize that our good deeds and human relationships mean nothing without a knowledge of, belief in, and obedience to, the Word of God?

    Larry King mentioned during his interview the other night with Warren that a copy of The Purpose Driven Life was found in the back seat of Scott Peterson’s car. They concluded that, in light of the outcome, he must not have read it. Here we have support from the LIBERAL media and it’s premier talk show host, an agnostic! That right there ought to tell you something’s askew! How do we know Scott Peterson DIDN’T read it? Maybe the absence of tears and remorse the media and their expert psychologists condemned him for was really Scott gracefully accepting his newfound purpose in life on death row? That killing his wife and unborn son is what made it all possible. Same logic…

    Michael Schiavo apparently believes HIS purpose in life is to see to it that his wife loses hers. After all he’s been through over the last fifteen years, he’d probably call her DEATH a miracle – an event that would free him up to marry his live-in girlfriend and be a legitimate father to their two kids. Why doesn’t somebody ask him if HE has a copy of Rick Warren’s book? If anyone ever had a purpose, it's Michael Schiavo!

    Anyway, call the Purpose Driven hostage outcome anything you want; but it was not a miracle. It was only reported as such because the book she chose to read from that day is published by a subsidiary of one of those big five corporations I mentioned earlier. They have a vested interest in Warren’s success and none in Jesus Christ’s.

    I am thrilled that Ashley escaped with her life and that no one else was killed, including Mr. Nichols; but don’t let the media hype this into something it was not. If I’ve learned anything about the “wide gate and the broad way,” it’s that the crowd is ALWAYS wrong.

    I wish only the best for Ms Smith and her little girl; and sincerely hope that Brian Nichols confesses, repents and surrenders to the One who works REAL miracles and doesn’t end up a Purpose Driven hostage himself.

    © 2005 Paul Proctor - All Rights Reserved
     
  4. shannonL

    shannonL New Member

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    At first glance, the snippet of RW seemed to me like he was saying "Hey you can help see more people saved if you become a church planter or part of team,group, etc... that is. I did not read into it that RW was drawing the conclusion that church membership or works is all that is required to enter heaven. I would enjoy seeing the whole article in context.
    That being said I don't particularly cater to all of RW's methodology nor some of his doctrine.
    His marketing techniques of the church are not my cup of tea. He has been ifluenced by some odd characters like Peter Wagner. He studied under Wagner at Fuller. Wagner is real into dominionist theology. Warren has adopted alot of Peter Drucker's business marketing techniques to build his church and ministry. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to connect Warren's marketing the PDL brand with the concepts of Peter Drucker.
    BTW, I have read very creditable articles in US News and World Report and other highly creditable economic periodicals that connect Drucker and Warren. I get the idea sometimes that Warren believes that the kingdom must be brought in "physically" by the church. If not, why the emphasis on the PEACE plan? Does RW honestly believe we can eradicate poverty around the world? When Jesus said the poor will always be around. I know that ending poverty is just one aspect of "the plan" but the church has seen this before. Anytime a greater emphasis is put upon the social aspects of the Gospel eventually the Gospel itself is what suffers. History has proven this. Mainline denominations have come and gone due to that emphasis. Ecumenical endeavors after reaching a certain point always blur the lines of what is good, sound theology and what is not. The spreading of the Gospel will never be taken on successfully by all inclusive endeavors because it is exclusive by its very nature. Jesus is the only way. Only time will tell if the PEACE plan is of God or not. Some of its principles don't add up. Does RW think he can ERADICATE poverty on this earth? If he does he is sorely mistaken. IF he simply thinks his plan can help weaken the grip of poverty on folk that is different. He is not saying that. It wouldn't sell as well if he was that plain about it now would it?
    I believe RW believes the Gospel. Yet why does he continue to yoke up with so many people and organisations that are so vague concerning the Gospel if they believe at all?
    I heard something one time, makes alot of sense.
    You can throw a good apple into a bucket of rotten apples and you'll never see those rotten apples turn good. That good apple always rots.
    I believe that is the case with evangelicals and some of its major players like RW and Hybels.
     
  5. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    thank you, Shannon - excellent perception [​IMG]
     
  6. RandR

    RandR New Member

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    If he said it, he's right.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This can be said about most evengelists, including Billy Graham. This in itself does not mean they are false prophets...just humans. We are told to test the spirits. Any "spirit" that constantly attacks RW and other believers is not of God.
     
  8. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    This can be said about most evengelists, including Billy Graham. This in itself does not mean they are false prophets...just humans. We are told to test the spirits. Any "spirit" that constantly attacks RW and other believers is not of God. </font>[/QUOTE]RW is a false teacher and he associates [write books with, teams up with, etc] with those who are unbelievers - We are to withdraw from such.

    1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof comes envy, strife, railings, evil questionings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw yourself.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If this is what your definition of salvaion is...then you are the false teacher, not RW. Salvation is dependant only on faith in Jesus Christ...exactly what RW teaches. Under your false view, the thief on the cross could not have been saved since he had no knowledge. He had faith in Jesus alone, period.
     
  10. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson New Member

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    eloidalmutha posted from The Purpose Driven Hostage (whatever that is):

    I was surprised to see this conspiracy claptrap right in the middle of the story. Conspiracy theorists always give those in charge of the theory way too much credit. It's always as if those in charge of the theory are omniscient and have the ability to see into the future with amazing precision to know exactly what people are going to do.

    When I see this type of conspiracy nonsense, I always question the credibility of the writer of the conspiracy theory and the credibility of the one who posts such drivel on an Internet message board.

    Posting this kind of stuff weakens your argument that Rick Warren should be avoided.
     
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:


    ABOUT ETERNITY:
    forgiveness and salvation from what?

    “He will either exist eternally separated
    from God by sin, or in union with God through forgiveness and salvation.
    To be eternally separated from God is Hell”


    no mention of repentance,
    Do you not understand what salvation is?


    blood sacrifice,cross, suffering.
    hell is separation from God - yes, but it is also eternal punishment. what does separation from God mean to an unbeliever? not a thing.

    ABOUT JESUS CHRIST:
    co-equal with God?????? Looks like we have Jesus as "a" god. hanging with wimber will do that to ya.
    uhhh . . . errr . . . the cross paid for sin in full, not the resurrection. The resurrection = eternal life.

    So you would say Jesus is lower or higher than God if he is not equal? Are you saying Jesus is not God. Explain.

    ABOUT SALVATION:
    Jesus is God's "offer" of forgiveness?????? I am speechless . . .

    ABOUT ETERNAL SECURITY:
    I won't even go there except to say that the grace of God to the believer includes submission of will and life. Without the acceptance and submission of discipline and correction of God's grace, one is considered a bastard and not a son.



    Sorry I did not check your profile until now and noticed that you Christian Church /Disciples of Christ which does not believe in eternal security. But you might consider 1John 5:11-13 and John 10.

    Anyone can be an antagonist but I sure do how there are many people you are discipling because your doctrinal statement will not get people to heaven. To better understand what I mean read James
     
  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Opinion. Give us some truth about what you are trying to prove.
     
  13. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson New Member

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    eloidalmanutha, sorry about getting your nick wrong. I didn't take the time to make sure I had it right.
     
  14. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    If this is what your definition of salvaion is...then you are the false teacher, not RW. Salvation is dependant only on faith in Jesus Christ...exactly what RW teaches. Under your false view, the thief on the cross could not have been saved since he had no knowledge. He had faith in Jesus alone, period. </font>[/QUOTE]From two former posts: My original statement:
    Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
    That Jesus Christ is God, that salvation is dependent on repentance and the Truth of God's Word - like sanctification, justification, living a holy life and repentant life - not man's desire to reinvent what God said.

    Initial salvation is dependent on repentance and the Truth of God's Word. Which is exactly what salvation is. The Holy Spirit convicts [grace] knowledge is given that Jesus is God and the Sacrifice for sin [grace] the heart responds in repentance [God given faith] and then confesses [God given faith] and receives forgiveness [faith and grace]. Living a sanctified and holy life is continuing salvation. God's grace is the gift of salvation without merit, without works. Repentance is not a work made of human hands. It is the intent and contriteness of the heart toward God.
     
  15. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    Opinion. Give us some truth about what you are trying to prove. </font>[/QUOTE]you might start from page one of this thread, unless you want me to repost all of my posts- which I am more than happy to do :D
     
  16. guitarpreacher

    guitarpreacher New Member

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    Opinion. Give us some truth about what you are trying to prove. </font>[/QUOTE]you might start from page one of this thread, unless you want me to repost all of my posts- which I am more than happy to do :D </font>[/QUOTE]We've read everything you've posted so far, and all you've proven is that you don't know what Rick Warren is all about, and you are a false teacher who doesn't understand grace.
     
  17. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Okay folks--I can't figure out who is quoting who here. It seems that the original post of a person is quoting himself and then he is quoting what another person posted using the same quote--this is quite confusing here--why are you quoting yourselves--let's think this thing out--LOL :confused: :confused:
     
  18. USN2Pulpit

    USN2Pulpit New Member

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    agreed...this thread is becoming a waste of time...
     
  19. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    gb wrote:

    quoting RW: ABOUT ETERNITY:
    forgiveness and salvation from what?

    “He will either exist eternally separated
    from God by sin, or in union with God through forgiveness and salvation.
    To be eternally separated from God is Hell”

    eloidalmanutha responded with:
    no mention of repentance,

    gb came back with:
    Do you not understand what salvation is?
    **********************************[end quote]


    eloidalmanutha:

    Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. [Savior from . . . . . . . ???????]

    1 Cor 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that all of you were made sorry, but that all of you sorrowed to repentance: for all of you were made sorry after a godly manner, that all of you might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world works death.

    Belief in Jesus is belief that He is The Messiah, The Saviour - which equals . . . . . . . forgiveness of sins. If there is no repentance for sin, there is no forgiveness. Even the devils believe that Jesus is The Messiah and The Saviour. Unless you are of the now current theology that *all* will be saved in end?

    A short version: Salvation belongs to the Lord. Turn or burn.

    gb wrote:

    quoting eloidalmanutha:
    co-equal with God?????? Looks like we have Jesus as "a" god. hanging with wimber will do that to ya.

    gb response:
    So you would say Jesus is lower or higher than God if he is not equal? Are you saying Jesus is not God. Explain.

    eloidalmanutha:
    RW says that Jesus is not God. Co-equal with God does not make Him God.

    I don't think you have been reading my posts - my contention with RW is that he NEVER EVER says that Jesus IS God. He dances the two step around it all the way. How can he - he is a disciple of wimber.


    gb wrote:
    Sorry I did not check your profile until now and noticed that you Christian Church /Disciples of Christ which does not believe in eternal security. But you might consider 1John 5:11-13 and John 10.

    Anyone can be an antagonist but I sure do how there are many people you are discipling because your doctrinal statement will not get people to heaven. To better understand what I mean read James

    eloidalmanutha:
    Hahahahahahaha - that is very funny, I almost fell off my chair - thanx for making my day :D

    I had to go back to my profile, cause I did a double take. My profile says nothing about being a disciples of Christ adherent. I am a Christian Baptist or a Baptist who is a Christian. I believe that Jesus is God, is God made manifest in the flesh. Just because I go to a Christian Church does not make me a member of the denomination of the Disciples of Christ ;)
     
  20. DeadMan

    DeadMan New Member

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    Where's your proof? I don't know enough about him to make a claim such as this.
     
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