yes.
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Did the RCC actually give to us the Sacred Scriptures?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
It would help if you defined the term "Catholic Church," because you and I don't seem to have the same idea of what it is. I don't see how it could have possibly begun in 251 unless your definition is very, very broad. There was no ecclesiastical structure in place in 251, and no pope. To my knowledge, no one was called pope then, and no one called himself pope. The term pontifex maximus in 251 referred to the emperor in reference to pagan religion.
Here are some of the notes from a lecture I just gave on the origin of Catholicism. Note the beginning of various aspects of the RCC. For example, how could there be a RCC without the mass? Here are the notes:
III. Catholic Doctrines Accepted by Churches
A. In the years that followed, various doctrines and practices began to be accepted by Christians which foreshadowed the Catholic Church. The abandonment of a strict Scriptural basis for ecclesiology was devastating.
B. Prayers for the dead and the sign of the cross developed about AD 300.
C. By 375 some were venerating angels and dead saints (Col. 2:18-19). Note that the worship of angels is making a comeback in the 21st century.
D. Some began to call Mary theotokos, meaning “God-bearer” or “one who gives birth to God.” This was the precursor of Catholic Mariolatry, and the term was opposed in the fifth century by Nestorius among others.
E. The daily Mass was developed around 394.
F. An ascetic movement began. The extreme asceticism of some, including the presumed holiness of celibacy, prompted the monastic movement, though celibacy was not required for priests until 1079 by Pope Gregory VII.
1. “In Syria and Mesopotamia asceticism occasionally took bizarre forms. The majority of the monks were very simple Syriac-speaking people, ignorant of Greek. Their recorded mortifications make alarming reading. A heavy iron chain as a belt was a frequent austerity. A few adopted the life of animals and fed on grass, living in the open air without shade from the sun and with the minimum of clothing.”[1]
2. “At the monastery of Telanissos (Deir Sem’an) in Syria, Symeon the Stylite (c. 390-459) practiced his idiosyncratic austerity of living on top of a column. Attacked at the time as mere vainglory, Symeon’s austerity was real enough, and won the deep reverence of the country people.”[2]
3. In our zeal for Christ and our Biblical stand for personal separation (Rom. 12:1-2, 1 John 2:15-17), let us not become proud, and let us not separate so far that we cannot reach people for Christ (1 Cor. 9:19-25). The Bible specifically condemns asceticism (Matt. 11:18-19, Col. 2:20-23, 1 Tim. 4:1-7).
[1] Henry Chadwick, The Early Church (London: Pelican, 1967), 180.
[2] Ibid.
III. Catholic Doctrines Accepted by Churches
A. In the years that followed, various doctrines and practices began to be accepted by Christians which foreshadowed the Catholic Church. The abandonment of a strict Scriptural basis for ecclesiology was devastating.
B. Prayers for the dead and the sign of the cross developed about AD 300.
C. By 375 some were venerating angels and dead saints (Col. 2:18-19). Note that the worship of angels is making a comeback in the 21st century.
D. Some began to call Mary theotokos, meaning “God-bearer” or “one who gives birth to God.” This was the precursor of Catholic Mariolatry, and the term was opposed in the fifth century by Nestorius among others.
E. The daily Mass was developed around 394.
F. An ascetic movement began. The extreme asceticism of some, including the presumed holiness of celibacy, prompted the monastic movement, though celibacy was not required for priests until 1079 by Pope Gregory VII.
1. “In Syria and Mesopotamia asceticism occasionally took bizarre forms. The majority of the monks were very simple Syriac-speaking people, ignorant of Greek. Their recorded mortifications make alarming reading. A heavy iron chain as a belt was a frequent austerity. A few adopted the life of animals and fed on grass, living in the open air without shade from the sun and with the minimum of clothing.”[1]
2. “At the monastery of Telanissos (Deir Sem’an) in Syria, Symeon the Stylite (c. 390-459) practiced his idiosyncratic austerity of living on top of a column. Attacked at the time as mere vainglory, Symeon’s austerity was real enough, and won the deep reverence of the country people.”[2]
3. In our zeal for Christ and our Biblical stand for personal separation (Rom. 12:1-2, 1 John 2:15-17), let us not become proud, and let us not separate so far that we cannot reach people for Christ (1 Cor. 9:19-25). The Bible specifically condemns asceticism (Matt. 11:18-19, Col. 2:20-23, 1 Tim. 4:1-7).
[1] Henry Chadwick, The Early Church (London: Pelican, 1967), 180.
[2] Ibid.
Most histories I have studied are reluctant to give a date as to when the RCC became the heretical amalgamation it has presently become.
Jesus illustration of yeast fermenting a lump of bread is a perfect illustration - a slow process over time.
Personally I would say around the year AD 800 when the church of Rome executed their first "heretic".
I don't remember his name or what he said that got him killed. I believe he was strangled (no bloodshed, as if that made a difference).
Once they began their murder IMO they proved they had apostatized. By the year AD1000 or so bloodshed abounded.
The hierarchy likes to say that "times were different then". Well so were they when Jesus said "love one another".
I don't ever blame the laity, always the hierarchy down to the parish priest.
Jesus illustration of yeast fermenting a lump of bread is a perfect illustration - a slow process over time.
Personally I would say around the year AD 800 when the church of Rome executed their first "heretic".
I don't remember his name or what he said that got him killed. I believe he was strangled (no bloodshed, as if that made a difference).
Once they began their murder IMO they proved they had apostatized. By the year AD1000 or so bloodshed abounded.
The hierarchy likes to say that "times were different then". Well so were they when Jesus said "love one another".
I don't ever blame the laity, always the hierarchy down to the parish priest.
I have considered the time of formation of RCC was around 251 AD when Cornelius gathered a massive people of so-called Christians who yielded to Emperor worship while Novatian led the Christians who refused the Emperor Worship despite the persecution. So, it was the time when there started to be majority of apostate Christians and the minority of true Christians. Such majority Secular Christians could quickly lean on the secular power. It happened again at the time of Donatus and Donatists in 311 AD. Title Pontiff Maximus was handed over from Emperor Gratian to Roman Bishop Damasus 2 in 378 AD.
We remember that Theotokos was officialized at Ephesus Council in 431 AD, Infant Baptism was condemned at Milevi Council in 416 AD, and many Catholic teachings were established by Pope Gregory 1 during 590-604 AD. So, Continuously RCC was formed during the lengthy time and the starting point, I would say, was 251 AD Split between Cornelius and Novatians.
God Bless
Eliyahu
When and who was the first historically recognized pope?
Well, we'll agree to disagree. But I don't know of any scholars of church history that would say the RCC began in 251, do you? (But then there is a lot I don't know.) I believe there were many, many independent churches in the first 4 centuries or so, more than those that formed a denomination.
I say it was Gregory the Great in the 6th century. Or maybe it was the butler in the living room with the knife.
Anyone other than Peter!I say it was Gregory the Great in the 6th century. Or maybe it was the butler in the living room with the knife.