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Dispensational belief?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ed Edwards, Mar 14, 2006.

?
  1. Yes

    88.9%
  2. No

    11.1%
  3. Maybe, can't tell, or other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The blind spots of a-mills:

    1. That "Christ may come at any moment".

    Sorry, if there is a momen that which Christ may not
    return, there will be some heathens who will think
    it is a sin lisense :(

    2. No signs must be fulfilled prior to Rapture.

    The a-mills need some signs, and are looking for signs,
    not Jesus to return

    3. Trib-Saints will populate the Kingdom.

    Rewarded Church Age saints will minister with Jesus
    in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. Jewish saints
    will live on earth in the physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
    Lost people with earthly bodies will populate the
    Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. BTW, the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
    is just one of the three Kingdoms of our triune God.

    4. Trib-Saints are not in the Body of Christ.

    A-mills make the mistake of spiritualizing everything.
    "Body of Christ" is a spiritual PICTURE that blind a-mills
    can't 'see'.

    5. Elect of Matthew 24:31 are Jews only.

    But for those who say Matthe 24:31 is for the Gentile CHurch,
    they also are damned for their viewpoint. Personally
    I teach that Matthew 24:31 is where the gathering of the saints,
    AKA THE RAPTURE is mentioned by Jesus.

    6. The Rapture occurs at Rev.4:1

    Poor reading skills, those a-mills have.
    What is said by some dispenstinals is:
    "Revelation 4:1 is AS/LIKE the snatching away of
    John the Revelatior into heaven. But many a-mills
    have poor spiritualization (figure of speach)
    skills - a bad trait for
    those who spiritualize away stuff

    7. Day of the Lord is the great tribulation

    Personally I teach FROM THE BIBLE,
    three different "Day of the Lord"s,
    and it confuses the a-mills no end.
    The Tribualtion Period is one of the dozen or two
    judgements of God.

    8. We are to look for the Son; not for Signs

    Actually if you look at #2 you will see the a-mills
    look for signs even when the Bible clearly delineates
    there will be no signs of the pretribulation rapture's coming.

    9. OT Saints are not part of the Lamb's Bride.

    A-mills make the mistake of spiritualizing everything.
    "Lamb's Bride" is a spiritual PICTURE that blind a-mills
    can't 'see'.

    10. Believers rewarded in heaven before S.C.

    I don't know what an S.C. is, off hand???
    Maybe a second coming. Much better a belief than
    that in heaven people will be beaten till blood comes
    for thier sins on earth. Blood letting in heaven???

    11. Salvation was by works under Dispy of Law.

    This is taught by such a small minority of Dispensatinalists
    that it is not to be worried about. BTW, even those who
    say they are COVENTITS have a dispensational doctrine.
    What people think about the dispensatinalism of God is their
    dispensational theory/doctrine.

    12. Church must be removed to allow Antichrist.

    Actually, it is a far cry from "when the church is removed
    it will allow room for the Antichrist" to "The Antichrist
    will come when the Church is removed". It is the difference between
    a have to and a will be.
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    Good morning. I do not have time to make post. Because I just get home form 3rd shift job. This afternoon, at 1 pm, I would have to pick up my friend at the airport. Later tonight I will have to go to work. This week, I will make post to reply back to you.

    Your recently comment show lot of logicals these are your opinions. Many of these are not find in the Bible.

    You saying Jewish saints shall enter millennial with physical, also, survived tribulation saints will repopulated the world in the millennial.

    Premillennialism have a SERIOUS problemn with its teaching about repopulate the world beyond Christ's coming.

    It is unbiblical.

    I urge you to read whole Matthew chapter 24 and 25 telling these things what will be happened. Pretribs believe there will be another second chance for people who will miss rapture will go through tribulaiton to become saved. Thier teaching is unbiblical.

    Christ telling us of Matt. 24:37-41 about the lesson of the flood, what it done with whole humankind. Flood came and took them ALL AWAY, so also, it shall be same at Lord's coming. When Christ shall come again, He shall send His angels to take all unbelievers away for the judgement. Also, Luke 17:34-37 clear telling us, when Christ shall come, these unbelievers shall be taken away, for to be eaten alive by vultures.

    Also, Matt. 25:1-12 is the clearest proof, that there will be no another second chance for any person to repent or to become saved beyond Christ's coming. When Christ once comes, then it is FINISHED - 2 Cor. 6:2. Time for the world to be judged.

    There shall be NO survived unbeliever to enter into eternality with Christ after his coming at the judgment day. All unbelievers(goats) shall be cast away into the lake of fire right away follow at Christ's coming - Matt. 25:31-46.

    Remember, Matt. 24:14 tells us, the gospel is still open to the world in THIS present age. When once Christ comes, then the age is FINISHED, means the gospel is FINISHED.

    Matt. 24:29-31 is so very clear, that we all shall be gathering together follow after tribulation. You cannot find a single verse in chapter 24 saying that Christ shall come before tribulation. So, pretribulationism is a fallacy.

    Later this week, I will discuss more as what Ed saying about amills and others in his previous post.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //There shall be NO survived unbeliever to enter into eternality with Christ after his coming at the judgment day. All unbelievers(goats) shall be cast away into the lake of fire right away follow at Christ's coming - Matt. 25:31-46.//

    This scripture deals with nations, not individuals.
    This scripture deals with sheep nations = nations that
    were kind to the Jews during the Tribulation Period.
    This scripture deals with goat nations = nations that
    were mean to the Jews during the Tribulatin Period.
    The sheep nations and the goat nations both are made up
    of unsaved people. This passage is NOT about any saved person.
     
  4. Brother James

    Brother James New Member

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  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Personally? I think "he" is Michael, the archangel, protector of Israel. He stands down (translated "stands up" in Daniel, but the Hebrew could just as easily be translated as "stands down" or "stands still"), after which all heck breaks loose (the great tribulation).

    It's Michael's job to protect Israel. When he "stands down", he's effectively taken out of the way and that allows the time of trouble to occur.

    Notice the similarity of the description of the time of trouble and the description of the great tribulation in the NT. Also notice that it doesn't occur until Michael "stands up". Most people think of it as a time when Michael "arises" (it's even translated that way in NIV) to protect his people. But if that's the case, he does a pretty terrible job, because that's the moment when everything goes sour. Some protector! So "stands still" or "stands down" makes more sense, since it is only after Michael "stands down" that all the trouble breaks loose.

    That's the way I see it. Your mileage may vary.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Jude 9, though, shows that Michael, nor any created being has power over satan. He turned satan over to the Lord.
     
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Amen Deafposttrib, when the Lord comes back judgement will take place. I expect to hear him say "come ye blessed of my Father" or depart ye worker of iniquity.
    Preach what Jesus said himself. "if you die in your sins where I am you cannot come".
    When you think you have learned something new always refer back to what Jesus himself said about the matter and if it don't compare with His sayings, you have it wrong. Start over!!!
    peace [​IMG]
     
  7. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    That's assuming he is holding back satan. That's not how the passage reads, though.

    It's more like the restrainer is restraining the effects of the working of satan (lawlessness and deception), not satan himself. The lawless one is not satan himself, anyway, but is at most empowered by satan.
     
  8. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Ed,

    What are you saying here regarding Dispy belief?
    Many of them teach that the Elect of Matthew 24:31 are Jews being re-gathered to Israel.
    ________________________________________________
    "But for those who say Matthew 24:31 is for the Gentile CHurch, they also are damned for their viewpoint. Personally I teach that Matthew 24:31 is where the gathering of the saints, AKA THE RAPTURE is mentioned by Jesus".
    ________________________________________________

    If you are saying you are one of those who believes the Rapture of Matt.24:31 is a Post-
    Trib event; who is it that damns you for believing the truth??

    Mel
     
  9. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    [​IMG]

    The "Day of the Lord" "ends the trib" and marks the end of the six days and start of the "Seventh day", the MK.

    In the "day of the lord", (first resurrection) Jesus returns with "All his Saints", both Church/trib, the "Angel reaper" will separte the "Wheat/Tares", casting the Tares into Hell, the Tares are not Judged at this time but later at the GWT, the "WHEAT" are the "physical survivor" of the trib, these will enter the MK and produce Children, since the resurrected neither marry/given in marriage, righteous people will live considerably "longer" lifes in the MK than now, but nevertheless, will die within the 1000 years, later to be Judged at the GWT as the "Sheep" among the "Goats".

    Jesus will conduct the "BEMA SEAT" judgment when he returns for "REWARDS", Bind up satan, then we will "live and reign" with him for the "seventh day". (1000 years)

    1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    Mt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


    Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

    16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

    17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

    Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    Re 20:4 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

    4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for "very age". (old)

    5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

    Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, (in the "EIGHTH DAY") Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne,

    Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.



    "IF" you'll recall, when Jesus returns the "Angel reaper" cast the Tares into hell, they are not judged at that time, the only time both saved/lost appear together for Judgement is at the GWT, The previous righteous have already been Judge, this is why the "Second death" has no power over them.

    This is the only time those "in hell" come out to stand Judgment.

    All Judgment is committed to Jesus, so this is Jesus sitting on the GWT.


    Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then shall THE KING (not SON/Prince) say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    The "Father" is in the "SON".

    [ March 15, 2006, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]
     
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That's assuming he is holding back satan. That's not how the passage reads, though.

    It's more like the restrainer is restraining the effects of the working of satan (lawlessness and deception), not satan himself. The lawless one is not satan himself, anyway, but is at most empowered by satan.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think it's assuming he's holding back satan. In the text, it was only a dispute over the body of Moses. The "mystery of iniquity" is far greater than a dispute over a dead body, and Michael had no power over that. He certainly has no power over sin (MOI), or holding back the antichrist.
     
  11. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Again, I'm not claiming that Michael is holding back the antichrist. He's restraining the great tribulation from occurring by protecting Israel. There's a war over us among principalities and powers that is going on, but we don't see this first hand. We only see the effects. (See Ephesians 6, and Daniel and the angel fighting the prince of persia). In fact, there are sections (I can't recall the verses off the top of my head) that illustrate that there are leaders in the OT who are referred to as both real people and angelic/demonic bad guys - indicating that the real people are either posessed or controlled by spiritual powers. So what happens in the war we can't see often overlaps what happens here on earth.

    Michael is the head honcho working against the fight against Israel. If Michael stands down, then the bad guys among the principalities and powers can do things in Israel they can't do now because they are being restrained.

    I'm not a dispensationalist, but I do believe the great tribulation is an Israel-centered event. One can figure that out from Matthew 24, because the people are told to flee from areas in Israel -- there's no mention that we should flee New York. ;) So for me, it all fits together very nicely. Michael stands down, and then all heck breaks loose in Israel because the bad guys among the principalities and powers can have their way with the Jews.
     
  12. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Again, I'm not claiming that Michael is holding back the antichrist, himself, but is holding back that part of spiritual warfare that would allow the antichrist to not only appear but to be successful in his endeavors.

    He's restraining the great tribulation from occurring by protecting Israel. There's a war over us among principalities and powers that is going on, but we don't see this first hand. We only see the effects. (See Ephesians 6, and Daniel and the angel fighting the prince of persia). In fact, there are sections (I can't recall the verses off the top of my head) that illustrate that there are leaders in the OT who are referred to as both real people and angelic/demonic bad guys - indicating that the real people are either posessed or controlled by spiritual powers. So what happens in the war we can't see often overlaps what happens here on earth.

    Michael is the head honcho working against the fight against Israel. If Michael stands down, then the bad guys among the principalities and powers can do things in Israel they can't do now because they are being restrained.

    I'm not a dispensationalist, but I do believe the great tribulation is an Israel-centered event. One can figure that out from Matthew 24, because the people are told to flee from areas in Israel -- there's no mention that we should flee New York. ;) So for me, it all fits together very nicely. Michael stands down, and then all heck breaks loose in Israel because the bad guys among the principalities and powers can have their way with the Jews.
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Sorry - I meant to edit my post, not quote it, but that'll have to do. ;)
     
  14. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    npetreley,

    I note you did not reply to the following which
    reveals that God will "remove the restraint and
    the restrainer" so that Antichrist is revealed:

    The reference which you alluded to, and which seems like a reference to what I wrote, is incorrectly attributed by Phillip to me. Unknowingly he is attacking me over what someone else wrote above.

    In the future, please identify whom you are
    quoting so such misinformation can be avoided:
    ______________________________________________
    "I looked at the site you have linked and it's such a jumble that I can hardly get through any of it. There are TONS of assumptions in there that aren't explicitly stated in scripture, and they aren't separated out from scripture, identified as assumptions or backed with scripture references to explain how the author(s) came to those conclusions".
    _______________________________________________
    I too looked at the site and saw the "jumble"!
    I always back up what I write with Scripture!!

    It seems you and I are mostly in agreement. The
    initials S.C. refer to the second coming of
    Christ.

    On the matter of the restrainer, I think he/it
    will be removed just before Satan is cast from
    heaven. Michael's purpose is to instigate all that happens on earth as a RESULT of casting Satan to earth; whereas the restrainer must be removed because of God's judgment on apostasy! The War in Heaven follows Babylon's fall, IMO.

    Casting out Satan enhances the Judgment on those who "commit fornication" under Mystery Babylon and who then continue the System under the Beast. At the same time, Israel must be prepared to meet their Messiah and "many in the TRUE Church will be purged or purified and refined" so "all the Saints will be *counted* worthy".
    Dan.12:10-11; Rev.12:10-11; I Thess.3:13: 5:23; 2 Thess.1:5,11; Mark 8:38.

    The ECF (early church fathers) and reformed theologians considered the restrainer to be lawful government which is administrated by those whom God appoints as rulers. Rom.13.

    We know Babylon the Great will be destroyed
    at Midweek of Daniel's 70th Seven and that
    the remnants of lawful government will go
    down with her fall at the hands of 10 kings.

    That is when Michael will cast Satan from
    heaven to make war against the Saints by
    empowering the Beast as the 8th King. The
    restrainer of the Beast that "was, is not,
    yet is about to become the 8th King" will
    be removed when God judges the FALSE church
    and replaces it with the rule of the Beast.

    There is no evidence that the Beast rules
    the entire world prior to the fall of Babylon
    the Great at Midweek of Daniel's 70th Seven.

    So, instead of the Holy Spirit in the TRUE church being the restrainer, it must be
    the apostasy and its "headship" in the FALSE church that will be "taken out of the midst" of lawful govern ment and replaced by the Lawless One". 2 Thess.2.

    Michael continues to "stand up" for God's
    people; but it is God's will that the ten
    kings who destroy Babylon be the instrument
    for "removing the restraint" and Michael's
    act the means of impelling Satan to exert "great anger" (Rev.12:12; Greek) against the Woman and then "wrath" (vs.17) against the "rest of her seed who keep the commands of God and have the testimony of Jesus". Israel and the Church are targets of the "personified" Beast until Christ appears. Rev.12:12-17.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    From this site:

    http://www.lastday.net/

    I got this statemt:

    //When Jesus said we "will know the End is Near," He was speaking
    of Daniel's 3½ year Endtime and the abomination in a future Temple.
    Matt.24:15,33. Matthew 24:15 is not about the Temple destroyed
    in AD 70. The Pre-Endtime events leading up to the Endtime
    require a third Temple; but that Endtime is limited to 3½ years
    or 42 months or to 1260 days. Dan.7:25; Dan.12:7;
    Rev.11:2,3; Rev.12:6,14; Rev.13:5.//

    I don't know where //Jesus said we "will know the End
    is Near"//

    While this notes that 42 months of 30 days are
    1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
    there is another related prophetic time:
    'time, times, and half a time': Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7.
    Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
    'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.

    Dan 9:27 (JKV1611 Edition):
    And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
    and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
    and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
    hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
    & that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

    This implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th
    week. The subject paragraph only deals with one 3½-year
    period instead of the two mentioned in Daniel 9:27.
    I belive the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
    in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

    Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
    time-times-and-half-a-time passages:

    All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:

    Dan 7:25 And he shall speake great words against the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand, vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.

    The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

    Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linnen, which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand, and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.

    The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

    Rev 11:1-3 And there was giuen me a reede like vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
    2 But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
    3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes clothed in sackcloth.

    The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
    measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
    Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
    The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days

    Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
    for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
    this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested

    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.

    The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.

    Rev 12:14 And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.

    God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
    This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.

    Rev 13:5 And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was giuen vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.

    This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
    3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
    ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
    This also indicates two preiods, both of which could be 3½-years
    in length.

    So far we have seen three suggested two each 3½-year-periods.

    1. the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
    The two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years

    2. The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
    The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
    the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
    The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years
    God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.

    Rev 11:2 (KJV1611 Edition):
    But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
    and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
    and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
    fourty and two moneths.

    The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
    where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
    of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
    The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
    in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
    Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
    Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of HOlies & Holy Place
    building is being built.
    Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
    This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
    is where the 3ed most holy schrine of the Muslim world stands
    today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
    in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
    about 686AD.

    Here then is a timeline of the Bible's prophetic events:

    ================================================
    Expanded pretrib pre-mill timeline:

    0. church age continues

    1. rapture/resurrection

    2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

    2a. Starting events
    2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
    2a2. The revelation of the AC

    2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
    2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
    2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
    ---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
    2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
    2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
    2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
    2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
    ----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

    2c. the mid-tribulation events
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
    2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
    2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
    2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
    2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
    2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
    2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
    2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8 )
    2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
    2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18 )
    2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
    2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
    ----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
    2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
    ----- (Rev 12:1-6)

    2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
    2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
    2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
    ---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
    2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

    2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
    ------- (Rev 16:12-16)
    2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
    ------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18 )
    2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
    ------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
    2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
    2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
    ------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

    (2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
    ---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
    3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
    - 19:20-22!
    3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

    4. physical/literal MK=millinnial kingdom*

    *scriptures pending

    5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

    6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

    7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

    8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

    9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

    10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
    and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!
    =================================================
     
  16. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Ed,

    Quote from Ed: "I don't know where //Jesus said we "will know the End is Near"//

    The reason you confess to not knowing where
    Jesus said "we will know when the end is near,
    even at the doors" is because you did not absorb the verse I gave you, i.e., Matt.24:33.

    When will you know? "When you see ALL these
    things happening" including the signs of
    Seal Six and the "sign of the presence of
    the Son of Man; after the great tribulation"! Matt.24:29-30.

    Absorb the Word of Jesus and you too will Know!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mel Miller //Jesus said we "will know the End is Near"//

    My Bible says:

    Mat 24:3233 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.

    IMHO 'it' in v. 33 refers to 'Summer' in
    v. 32. How do you get that 'it' refers to
    'the End'?

    BTW, assuming that 'all these things' refers
    to stuff prior to Matthew 24:33 - which
    'signs' does it refer to? Please do not go
    beyond the start of the speach of Jesus
    in Matthew 24:3. Thank you.

    YOur possible partial answer of //the signs of
    Seal Six and the "sign of the presence of
    the Son of Man// - please Seal Six is not
    mentioned in Matthew 24.

    It seems to me that the at this point in the
    events to unfold it would be useless to
    talk about the 'signs'. At the point where Jesus
    returns, according to some postribulation
    rapture and a-rapturists theology, the
    end is not near - the end is there. Warnings
    should preceeded the event in enough time
    someone can do something about it.

    Meanwhile, according to my Eschatology there
    is a non-contradictory answer to my
    question about what 'all these things' refers
    to stuff prior to Matthew 24:33.

    'all these things' refers to Matthew 24:31-33. The pretribulation rapture refered
    to in Matthew 24:31 is the start of the signs
    that 'all these things' will appear.

    "All these things' refers to Matthew 24:15-30
    which follows the pretribulation rapture -
    the Tribulation Period.

    ---------------------------------
    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The time line according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection event
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The time line according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
    So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
    in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
    as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
     
  18. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Another blinder:

    Church and Israel distinct and separate!

    Wrong: True Israel is the church with believing Gentilse grafted in. The early disciples were Jewish. They were promised the Holy Spirit. The New Covenant was made to Jewish disciples of Jesus.

    Jesus was Jewish!!!

    This dichotomy of the church and Israel is the worst blinder, in my opinion, and generates all of the rest.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Here is the mystery you need to know about.
    Excerpt from Ed'S 13 Mysteries Docuemnt:

    ---------------------------------
    2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

    Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
    For I do not desire, brethren, that you
    should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
    should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
    in part has happened to Israel until the
    fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    26. And so all Israel will be saved,

    I've had several interesting discussions
    with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
    prospects that when the last possible gentile
    (Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
    as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
    resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
    Then will come the Tribulation Period,
    with the purpose
    of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.

    ---------------------------------
     
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

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    Sorry, DeafPosttrib, but you are wrong. My wife graduated from Midwestern in 1978. (She found me getting ready to go to Japan and we both found happiness in 1979!) The chapel is "Lakin Chapel," named after B. R. Lakin, not "Larkin" after Clarence Larkin. [​IMG]
     
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