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Dispensationalism - yea or nay.

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by Wesley Briggman, Sep 11, 2018.

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  1. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    I am a dispensationalist. I want to learn about differing views concerning unfulfilled prophecy. While I have found ample material written by dispensationalist about other views, I have found little information written by those who hold to the different views.

    In another recent posts, I have engaged with one who believes the 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy were fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. My question to him was regarding his view of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb:
    Rev 19:9 KJV - And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    He would not respond directly to my question concerning unfulfilled prophecy.

    What is the non-dispensationalist position regarding unfulfilled prophecy?
     
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Wesley, you have to look in the right place to find information on Covenant Theology, which is the competing systematic theology to Dispensationalism. I am a Covenant Theologian, although I am not a full Preterist. Full Preterism denies a future bodily resurrection. Covenant Theology does not teach that, although there are some who try to place themselves in the Covenant Theology camp and at the same time deny a future bodily resurrection.

    If you want to know more about Covenant Theology visit 1689Federalism.com. The website is full of good information on what Baptist Covenant Theology teaches. Even if your inquiry is purely for apologetic reasons it is worth the visit.

    SDG!
     
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  3. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    Thanks for your reply. My head is spinning already!!

    No bodily resurrection as in no rapture and/or no resurrection for judgement?

    I am not asking you to reply, just musing I will look farther into Covenant Theology, etc..
     
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Correct. Full Preterism denies all those things.

    Covenant Theology does not teach a pre-wrath rapture, but it does teach a bodily resurrection. There are a lot of boogeymen out there when it comes to describing Covenant Theology. Even some of my good friends who are still Dispensationalists admitted to me that Covenant Theology is not what some on their side had portrayed.

    I will be interested to learn from you what your research reveals to you.

    SDG.
     
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  5. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I write from a "partial preterist, amillennial" understanding. I'm not quoting authorities, but my own understanding from 60 years of Bible study, reading, listening & about 30 years of teaching.

    All the prophets prophesy about the coming of Messiah to fulfill God's eternal Covenant purposes. They don't anticipate a series of dispensations.

    Most of the prophets prophesied either before or during the Babylon exile. They are therefore looking forward to the return after 70 years, the rebuilding of the temple & the reestablishment of the kingdom.

    Only 3, Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi prophesied after the return from exile. They are dealing with the situation recorded by Ezra, Nehemiah & Esther. Zechariah is given many prophecies concerning the Lord Jesus, particularly his last week. Malachi deals with the continuing failings of the returnees & specifically prophesies the ministry of John as forerunner.

    What is Covenant theology? A Covenant is a promise by God to his people; a promise which may be conditional on obedience, or unconditional in Christ.

    continued.
     
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  6. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Starting with the Gen. 12 -
    2 and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    This promise/covenant declares God's plan, a nation descended from Abraham, and using Abraham & his seed to bless all families on earth. That Covenant is repeated to Abraham after his sacrifice of Isaac, & to Isaac & Jacob. Paul in Galatians explains that the seed is one, Christ, through whom all believers are blessed.

    A conditional covenant was made with the people of Israel in Exo. 19:
    5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    That Covenant includes "IF" & demands obedience. Israel failed en masse even while Moses was on the mount, when they made & worshipped the golden calf. God's covenant purposes did not, cannot, fail. He himself would provide the Lamb, the saving sacrifice for their sins, by the incarnation & saving work of the LORD Jesus Christ.

    Peter takes up that Covenant promise & applies to the believers -
    1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    The Covenant promises to David are fulfilled by Jesus at his resurrection & ascension. (Acts 2) We are a spiritual kingdom of believers; we are a spiritual temple & holy priesthood. The prophecies concerning David' kingdom & the priesthood are fulfilled in his redeemed people, aka the Church.

    All will be perfectly fulfilled when Jesus returns in glory, for resurrection & judgment, & to establish the NH&NE.

    continued
     
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  7. Just_Ahead

    Just_Ahead New Member

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    Hmmm... I am currently reviewing the following titles for my personal library.

    The KJV Prophecy Study Bible (2016, Barbour Publishing).

    Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy (J. B. Payne, 1991, Baker Books).

    Also:

    Basic Theology (C. C. Ryrie, 1999, Moody Pub.).

    Dispensationalism, revised & expanded. (C. C. Ryrie, 2007, Moody Pub.).
    Chapter 10: Covenant Theology.

    *****

    Anyone have any thoughts on these titles?
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    When a question is asked regarding "Dispensationalism" it is important to identify which "Dispensationalism" you are asking about.

    Do you mean the Classical Dispensationalism of Darby, Scofield, and Chafer?

    Or the Traditional or Revised Dispensationalism of Walvoord and Ryrie?

    Or the Progressive Dispensationalism of Blaising, Bock, and Saucy?

    (And I am not even going to mention the various forms of Hyper and Ultra Dispensationalism of Ruckman, Stauffer, and Grady.)
     
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  10. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I presume all these titles are written from a dispensational viewpoint. I'm not familiar with them. Ryrie has often been quoted as an authority on dispensationalism.

    As I understand the discussion, The pre-exile prophets have much to say about the restoration of Israel as a nation. As Israel has never been reestablished as a nation/kingdom until 1948, the dispensationalists see prophecy pointing to Israel in the end times, with literal fulfilment of the relevant prophecies.

    However, the New Covenant Scripture writers, Jesus & the Apostles do not take up these prophecies concerning a future for national Israel. They apply OC prophecy to the church, which comprises Jew & Gentile believers as one body, one redeemed people of God in Christ. Galatians & Ephesians spell this out. Hebrews sees the OC prophecies fulfilled in & by Christ.

    In fact John, Jesus & the Apostles specifically state that the OC system is at an end, & those who reject Jesus have no further hope. e.g. Mat. 3, Mat. 21-24, , John 8, Acts 3, Hebrews.

    The question in its simplest form is:
    Should we see OC prophecy fulfilled in Jesus & the church, in the present Gospel age;
    or should we look for the reestablishment of Israel as a nation for the fulfilment of prophecy.
     
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  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    If you like to read theology, a book that might help is The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, ed. by Robert G. Clouse (available on Amazon), in which 4 scholars give their differing views.

    I also recommend Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, by J. B. Payne, mentioned by Just_Ahead above. Payne is a well-known scholar, but not a dispensationalist.

    As for the preterists on the BB, their views are strictly from extreme allegorical interpretation (though some will not admit it).
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    These are all solid books, but there is some heavy reading there, especially in Payne. Ryrie's Dispensationalism is what we use for our textbook. (I teach Dispensational Theology.)
     
  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You are studying books written by Dispensationalist authors, so do not expect a fair treatment of Covenant Theology. If you really want to understand Covenant Theology, read works by its proponents. I say the same to Covenant Theologians who want to learn about Dispensationalism. Read Dispensationalist theologians to understand what they truly believe.
     
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  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Payne was not a Dispensationalist, but historic premil. His book is quite scholarly, and gives a fair shake to everyone, I feel.
     
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  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    We used "Theology of the Older Testament" at Central when I was in seminary. I still have a copy I refer to now and again. Excellent author.
     
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  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Although "dispensationalism" is not a term used by the Early Church Fathers (ECF) basic elements of Dispensationalism are discussed by several of the ECF.

    These elements along with the writings of specific ECF (even ante-Nicene) were the object of debates many years ago here at the BB.

    Try a Google - Dispensationalism and the Early Church Fathers

    e.g. you will get...
    Dispensationalism in the Early Church
     
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  17. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I agree about Payne not being a Dispensationalist. I missed his name.

    Payne is not my first choice for Covenant Theology, especially from a Baptist perspective. Baptist Covenant Theology is different than the Presbyterian version, and Payne was a Presbyterian. I do not want to get into the weeds about this and detract from the OP. That said, Pascal Denault's book, "The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology" is a good contemporary work. It was originally written as a research paper, so it is robust in its scholarship.
     
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  18. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Interesting site, but as a dispensationalist, I don’t recall getting the memo that I must reject typology.
    :Biggrin
     
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  19. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    What is the difference between Classic Dispensationalism and Revised Dispensationalism? because I honestly don't know which of those two I even fall into.
     
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  20. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    LOL Well, it is was an internal memo.
     
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