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Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Bible Answer Kid, Jun 25, 2005.

  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Gerstner's book is one of the three or four worst resources on understanding dispensationalism. It is an embarrassment to Gerstner and his publisher that it actually made it to print. I would base no conclusion about dispensationalism on this book.

    What this article says is true about some dispensationalists. It is not true about dispensationalism. That distinction must always be made clear. I object to much of what that article objects to. But I am a dispensationalist for other reasons. I realize that the things the article talks about are not a necesssary part of dispensationalism.

    So where is that part about the nation of Israel repenting and being restored to the land?

    I don't think the NC is already fulfilled becasue I believe God meant what he said. We are not under the old covenant, the Mosaic covenant either.

    I think it very unwise to go about deciding the most important doctrine. If you say the blood of Christ is, then what about the deity of Christ? His blood is worthless if not for his deity. And what about the doctrine of the second coming (whatever one believes about it). His blood serves no purpose if there is no second coming. So let's dispense with trying to prioritize the doctrines in this way.

    I do understand the purpose of Calvary and the NC. At Calvary, God was reconciling the world to himself. The NC is a promise to Israel that they, as a nation, will partake in the forgiveness of Calvary and will be restored to the land in peace. If you doubt me, just read what the Bible says about both.

    You are incorrect.

    I can agree on this.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I had promised not to respond to dispensationalist error, hyper or not. However, the above statement is so patently false I will simply Let Scripture respond:

    Genesis 15: 6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

    John 3:16-19
    16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


    John 4:39-42
    39. And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
    40. So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
    41. And many more believed because of his own word;
    42. And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


    Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

    John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

    Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

    Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
     
  3. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

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    I will not continue in this discussion due to the tone of the arguement earlier in the thread, from all sides.

    But I do want to thank Paul33 for the summary of his post trib position....I hadn't seen this before, thanks. But out of curiosity, what do you do with the land portion of the Abrahamic covenant? Also, I encourage/challenge you to revisit the exact text of the covenants, and make sure that, in their entirity, they support what you say in your position. I'm not sure they fit so easily.

    Deafposttrib: Regarding the article you referenced: Chafer wrote an 8 volume systematic theology. I seriously, seriously doubt if quoting a few sentences on eschatology is a fair summary of his views on salvation. I would've hoped the author would have quoted the volume on salvation. I encourage/challenge you to read Chafer before you believe the quotes about him. Which is good advice for all of us who are throwing around claims about what others believe.
     
  4. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Humblesmith,

    Thanks for your kind words.

    The land portion is fulfilled to the nation of Israel during the millennium (Zechariah 12-14)and then ultimately to all of God's people in eternity (Rev. 21-22).

    The Abrahamic covenant is made with Abraham but it blesses all nations. The Davidic covenant is made with David but it encompasses God making a house for David, not David making a house for God, what Peter and Paul describe as a holy temple and a holy nation.

    In no way would I pretend to have all of the lose ends tied up. But the covenants and promises of God are much more expansive than brother Larry seems to think. This expansiveness is not just my theory but is found in the very text of Scripture, IMO.
     
  5. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

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    Hey Paul:
    Just FYI....
    I remember seeing a series of articles about Post Trib in "Biblioteca Sacra" the journal that is published by DTS. I didn't read them, so I can't comment, but I remember seeing that they did a rather lengthy series, maybe 10 articles or so, and at the time they appeared to me to be rather detailed. I think they were in the issues back in the '70's. Just in case you're intereseted, you could find them at a good library.
     
  6. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I had promised not to respond to dispensationalist error, hyper or not. However, the above statement is so patently false I will simply Let Scripture respond:

    Genesis 15: 6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Well you kept your promise, as there is no error in what I put forth. I can’t understand why you “kick against the pricks”. The By and Through is one of the things that Christ revealed to Paul.

    And how was Abraham saved? BY faith. He is looking for a City. Abram is promised inheritance of the earth, not the heavenlies.

    Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    Can’t you see, you are only making my point?

    Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

    I believe all of the Bible, whether it was before the Old Testament began, during the Old Testament, the preaching of the “Kingdom that was at Hand”; The New Testament, of the preview of the Kingdom at Pentecost with its gospel, the Christian gospel given to Paul by Christ Jesus from heaven, as well as the Tribulation period, the millennium, then into eternity a short period afterwards.

    John 3:16-19
    16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


    John 4:39-42
    39. And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
    40. So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
    41. And many more believed because of his own word;
    42. And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


    You do know that John wrote His books over 30 years later than Paul's. All in this period that John writes to are saved through faith if they are in the Body of Christ, for they came through the blood, just as we when Jesus died on the Cross. Nobody could do this before He died could they?

    Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

    What does this have to do with coming throughfaith? Jesus saw their faith, and this was of healing and not of salvation.

    John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Amen! We don’t need any fake pictures of Him in our homes, cars or churches.

    Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

    All those Jews, and a few proselytes. You notice the Christians had to help them out, for the Jewish church did not make it, for the house of Israel, those of the Sanhedrin in Judah did not accept Messiah.

    Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

    But it was not the nation, of millions in the world. This is the reason for Damascus Road. God did what He knew what He would have to do from the beginning. And what He knew and told to Paul was what He had hidden from the beginning.

    We are to seek wisdom and know it when we see it. ”How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” Ephesians 3:3:10.

    If only we would just believe Christ as He speaks from heaven, through His Apostle to me, to you, to all Gentiles, and also to all Jews. Read Matthew, Mark, and Luke and see if Jesus had anything good to say about we that are heathen. He says He did not come for we heathen dogs. He was hoping His people would accept Him from the beginning He knew they would not, but He had to give them that chance for He had promised them the Kingdom, and they turned Him down.

    This shows the Love of God for He is going to save all Israel in that day, and today He is even saving the whole world, of those that will. He could easily have destroyed everything, and gone on about His business without the human race. But He made promises to His people. They didn’t keep the covenants, but He will yet have His wife that played the whore. How we Gentiles should praise and thank Him for He didn’t have to include us, but He did, even though He made no promises to us.

    Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

    See Acts 2:44 above.

    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    But we saw above at the first of the post how Abraham was saved.

    Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Have I ever said otherwise. Please read what you made the subject above. It speaks of a great wonder in just two little words of by and through. Those of Old saved of the adverbial word By could not be immediately saved, and they were held in the “bosom of Abraham”, but we that are saved of the adjective word Through meaning Christ finished His work, or better He completed His mission.
    Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    What Nonsense? We learn from ituttut's spin that all the Old Testament Saints were deluded as to their Salvation and some were held in Abraham's bosom even before Abraham existed.

    First: The only Scriptural reference to Abraham's bosom is in a parable by Jesus Christ, who by the way taught before Paul. John Gill states that Abraham's bosom is representative of heaven which should be obvious since one purpose of the parable is to contrast the fate of Lazarus and the rich man who is said to be in torment.

    Second: ituttut states
    Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16 tells us something entirely different. Abraham looked for a City but what kind of City. We read:

    8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


    Now we see that Abraham considered himself "a stranger and pilgrim on earth" and looked, not for an earthly city, but for a heavenly city. What is this city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God? It is the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, 22 which represents all those who have been redeemed by Jesus Christ, the Church.

    Third: ituttut, attempting to discredit the Salvation of the Gentile Samaritans as recorded in the Apostle John's Gospel states:
    I don't know when John wrote his Gospel of Jesus Christ neither does ituttut. John wrote about Jesus Christ not about Saul or Paul. To imply that John's writings were not inspired by the Holy Spirit and were not a true account of the life of jesus Christ, but were corrupted by something, is blasphemous.

    Fourth: iututtut's quotation of Ephesians 3: 3-10 is revealing:

    Ephesians 3:3-10
    3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


    Note in particular verse 5: Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Paul states that the mystery was "not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles [plural] and prophets by the Spirit." There are two important truths taught here. First: The use of the adverb as which means "to such a degree or extent". All Paul is stating is that the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Church is made more clear in the revelation of the New Covenant than in the Old. Second: Paul states that this mystery was revealed to "his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.", not to Paul alone who in turn revealed it to the other Apostles. It is a fact that most of the Apostles were dispersed throughout the world before the conversion of Saul, some as far as India. Did God send them to preach a false Gospel? I think not!

    In all of ituttut's posts we see revealed the error of dispensationalism carried to its extreme, hyper dispensationalism. [​IMG]
     
  8. John3v36

    John3v36 New Member

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    If you are looking for the word Dispensation you will not find it but you will find the concept.
    the convent view point can not be found till the 3rd century.

    A comparison of dispentional system of the Ante-Nicen Age:

    Justin Martyr (100 - 165 AD) {Dialogue with Trypho}
    Enoch / Noah (Adam to Abraham) Chap 92; cf chap 27
    Abraham (Abraham To Moses) Chap 92; cf. chap 19
    Moses (Moses to Christ) Chap 92 cf. 43
    Christ (Christ to Eternal state?) Chap 23, 43, 45
    Millennium (Seventh millenary of years) chap 81; Frag 15

    Irenaeus (120-202 AD) {Against Heresies}
    (3. 11. 8) Four Covenants (4. 9. 3)
    Adam to Noah (3. 11. 8; 4. 16. 2)
    Noah to Mose (3. 11. 8; 4. 16. 2)
    Moses to Christ (3. 11. 8; 4. 16. 2-3)
    Christ to Eternmal State? (3. 11. 8-9; 4. 9. 1-3)
    Millennium (Seventh millenary of years) (4. 16. 1; 5. 30. 4; 5. 33.2)

    Tertullian (150-225 AD)
    An Answer to the Jews
    Adam - Chaps 2, 4, 5
    Noah - Chap 2, 4
    Abraham - Chap 2-6
    Moses Chap 2-6
    Christ (More faithful worshipers) Apology Chap 21
    Millennium Apology Chap 49

    Tertullian (150-225 AD)
    Against Paxeas
    Adam - Chaps 16
    Noah - Chap 16
    Abraham - Chap 16
    Moses Chap 16
    Christ (More faithful worshipers) Ag.Marc. 3-4, 20
    Millennium- On the Res. 59,61

    Not only the above but “Victorinus of Petau” (on the Creation of the world)


    But above all Gods Word teaches it


    Saint John
     
  9. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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  10. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    There's always alot of talk among dispensationalists about "other ages." And then they delineate seven for our benefit.

    In this passage, what the KJV translates "other ages" is better translated "other generations."

    NIV Ephesians 3:5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

    NAU Ephesians 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

    KJV Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    NKJ Ephesians 3:5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

    NRS Ephesians 3:5 In former generations this mystery was not made known to humankind, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit:
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I did a word study once on "age".
    I used the New King James Version (nKJV)
    to avoid problems with mis-translation.
    Needless to say, my writing is very
    pro-Dispensationalism:

    -------------------------------
    "AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

    The KJV tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
    Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
    So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
    References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.


    Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
    Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
    it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
    it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
    The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
    is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

    *souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

    Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
    Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
    so it will be at the end of this age.

    Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
    So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
    forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

    Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
    Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
    to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
    And what will be the sign of Your coming,
    and of the end of the age?"

    Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
    teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
    and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

    *Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
    *the age has an end

    Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
    who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
    and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
    with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

    *people will have eternal life, in the age to come

    Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
    who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
    and in the age to come eternal life."

    Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
    34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
    and are given in marriage.
    35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
    and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

    *there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

    1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
    Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
    of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

    *this age has a disputer

    1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
    However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
    yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
    who are coming to nothing.

    *the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
    *the rules of this age will come to nothing

    1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
    which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
    they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
    Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
    to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

    2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
    whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
    lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
    who is the image of God, should shine on them.

    *the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

    Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
    who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
    us from this present evil age, according to the will
    of our God and Father,

    *this age is evil

    Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
    far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
    and every name that is named, not only in this age
    but also in that which is to come.

    *there is an age to follow this age

    Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
    For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
    against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
    against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

    * this age is dark

    1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
    Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
    nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
    us richly all things to enjoy.

    * this age has rich people in it

    Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
    teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
    we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

    Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
    and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

    This great section on the Security of the Believer
    speaks of an "age to come".
    * there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.

    AGES in the KJV1769:

    Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
    That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
    of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    **There will be ages after this age.

    Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
    Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
    as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
    Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
    world without end. Amen.

    Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
    and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:


    *There were ages before this age.
    *ages are similiar to generations
    -------------------------------
    BTW, i bolded that last verse.
    It seems to rebuke everything that
    Brother Paul33 says in his last post.
    -------------------------------
    Recall that in God's economy (AKA: dispensation):

    the dead live,
    the blind see,
    the rich are poor,
    the poor are rich,
    the lame leap like deer,
    the halt run,
    the deaf hear,
    the humble are exhaulted,
    etc.

    God's dispensation is way better than
    man's dispensations [​IMG]
     
  12. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Col. 1:26 simply means "from time past" or "from the beginning" or "from eternity."

    In this context, Paul is saying that the mystery which has been hidden from time past (ages past) and from generations has now been manifested to his saints.

    The use of generations with the greek word for "ages past" shows that Paul is not talking about a series of dispensations preceding this one, but only of time past and the generations that preceded this current generation.

    The references from Ed teach that there is "this" age and an "age to come." They do not teach that there was a previous five dispensations to this one.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Explain this:

    Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
    That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
    of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    **There will be ages after this age.
     
  14. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Means the same thing, Ed, IMO.

    "aion" means age, eternity, from the beginning. It is the same word used in Col. 1:26.

    That in the eternity to come he might show . . .

    It is a reference to a future time.

    In the coming ages . . .

    We know that there is this age and there is an age to come.

    I've seen nothing to indicate that there are more than three ages.

    From creation to Fall
    From Fall to Second Coming
    From Second Coming to New Heavens and New Earth
    Eternity
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I'm confused:

    First, you list two ages:
    (1) this age
    (2) the age to come:

    Then you list three ages:
    Then you list four ages.
    I'm confused :confused:
    Are you a closet Dispensationalist?
     
  16. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    I didn't list eternity as an age because it is timeless, but Jesus spoke only of two ages: this age and the age to come, meaning eternity.

    Using Jesus' framework, there are only two ages. From creation to the Great White Throne Judgment, and then Eternity!

    I like his order best, forget all of your dispensations! Let's go with two ages!
     
  17. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Will Continue
     
  18. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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  19. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    I don't wish to argue anymore dispensationalism with friend It.

    But:

    Romans 3:28 "justified 'pistei."
    Hebrews 11:17 "offered Isaac pistei"

    Same dative singular of pistos. Why should one be thought to mean BY faith and another THROUGH faith?

    Bill
     
  20. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16 tells us something entirely different. Abraham looked for a City but what kind of City. We read:

    8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


    I hope you will read with understanding, checking it out with the Bible, and not turn to some book written by man that follows tradition of man.

    Amen! I do believe His Word, which you have presented. But let’s see below what is heavenly.

    We see the heavenly City descending to the New earth in Revelation 21:1-3, ”And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.” Here is that “city” brought to earth, as God promised His people the earth. But notice there is still a heaven and an earth, and the children of God, those from Jacob, those of the twelve tribes, are the one’s involved with the earth. No second-class citizen’s here.

    God reveals in His dispensations what He wishes us to know. We see Christ informed Paul of this “heavenly city” that Abraham was looking for, and later God gives us information that He revealed to John, so that we would have the whole story, understanding that the earth is given as promised.

    Now we see that Abraham considered himself "a stranger and pilgrim on earth" and looked, not for an earthly city, but for a heavenly city. What is this city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God? It is the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, 22 which represents all those who have been redeemed by Jesus Christ, the Church.

    Jesus Christ will not only inherit the earth and those promised it, but also the heathen. There is a difference. I believe scripture tells us who the Bride is, and it looks to be the land of Zion, and that Holy City Jerusalem, for the land shall be married, and the sons of Israel will marry her – Isaiah 62.

    That Holy Heavenly City will come to this earth, and this City of God has twelve gates, and they are named of the twelve tribes of Israel. God does keep His promises. We in the Body of Christ are never told we will inherit this earth, as we inherit Jesus Christ, and not the earth for it is Him we serve – Colossians 3:24, ”knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.” In Colossians 3:4 we are told when Christ appears, we will also appear with him in glory. We are connected to Christ Himself as we can see in Philippians 3:20-21, ”For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” You’ll have to realize the arguments you make are against His Word, and not something I have made up.

    God keeps his promises, and they will inherit the new earth. Revelation 21:9-10 informs us of who this Bride is, and it is not we in the Body of Christ. ”And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,” We know at this happening we are in the Body of Christ already, and are His, eliminating us.

    Doesn’t Ezekiel 16 say God spread His skirt over Jerusalem and make her His? This New Jerusalem in Revelation above is the Bride that will house His people, that City that Abraham looked for. Impossible you say. Is anything impossible with God?

    Third: ituttut, attempting to discredit the Salvation of the Gentile Samaritans as recorded in the Apostle John's Gospel states:
    I don't know when John wrote his Gospel of Jesus Christ neither does ituttut.

    I regret you refuse to believe scripture. How can I discredit anyone’s salvation, when all I do is give you scripture understood. We know John died very close to the turning of the Century. Without going into detail just about all accept John writing in the ‘90’s. The only one’s I know that argue (with no proof) are the Preterist, and those with no knowledge when they may have been written.

    John wrote about Jesus Christ not about Saul or Paul. To imply that John's writings were not inspired by the Holy Spirit and were not a true account of the life of jesus Christ, but were corrupted by something, is blasphemous.

    I am not guilty of what you infer. Paul wrote about the Grace of God, and about Jesus Christ, and not about John. How do you dare suggest Paul’s writings are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. How do you come up with these “strange” ideas that everyone but you “blaspheme”? I’ll not call you names just because you don’t agree with what God has shown me to believe. I just happen to believe He has moved me to a better place in His Body, since I am no longer that “babe” in Christ as when I first believed.

    Fourth: iututtut's quotation of Ephesians 3: 3-10 is revealing:

    Ephesians 3:3-10
    3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


    Note in particular verse 5: Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Paul states that the mystery was "not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles [plural] and prophets by the Spirit." There are two important truths taught here. First: The use of the adverb as which means "to such a degree or extent".

    ”As” here is used as a conjunction of being the same time (present time) with the adverb “now” immediately. You cannot get rid of the “not” being known in other ages.

    All Paul is stating is that the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Church is made more clear in the revelation of the New Covenant than in the Old.

    The Christian church, the Body of Christ, was not known until after Damascus Road.

    Second: Paul states that this mystery was revealed to "his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.", not to Paul alone who in turn revealed it to the other Apostles. It is a fact that most of the Apostles were dispersed throughout the world before the conversion of Saul, some as far as India. Did God send them to preach a false Gospel? I think not!

    ”Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel”, Ephesians 3:5-6. This “now” means at this moment in time, or after Damascus Road, and not before. I would say the “now” is as Paul has explained to them in His Epistles, for this is evidently what Peter points to in II Peter 3:15-16.

    The Apostles never got out of Jerusalem, until sometimes after the Stoning of Steven. In Acts 10 Peter tells you they, the Jewish Pentecostal church never preached at are to the heathen (neither did Jesus for they had to make the first move).

    If you are correct in your time and place (India), do you know why they were in India (also many other places) before the conversion of Paul? Saul was the one that first scattered those of that church. He was a Holy terror, having them killed, beaten, and jailed. And do you know what those you refer to preached. Do you know what gospel they preached? They preached the “great commission” of repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”. I do not believe that message, for I believe in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation. I do not follow the Catholic belief of salvation by a church, or by a water baptism down here.

    In all of ituttut's posts we see revealed the error of dispensationalism carried to its extreme, hyper dispensationalism. [​IMG]
    [/QUOTE]

    I am “hyper” for Him. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
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