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Featured Divine Forgiveness

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JonC, Jun 12, 2022.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Ok, thanks for the conversation

    peace to you
     
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I had though of using the word reconcile, which is what does happen, but it just did not feel right to me. Appease for me is to be at peace. Those that trust in the Son are at peace with the Father. The death of the Son makes that possible for all mankind.

    Also when I think of reconciliation i think of this verse.
    2Co 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

    Through trusting in the risen Son we are reconciled, brought in to a right relationship,with God.
     
    #22 Silverhair, Jun 13, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You as well. I enjoy talking about God and redemption, even if we disagree.

    I never shy away from reexamining my views and greatly appreciate the conversation.
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    All forgiveness is conditional.

    Forgiveness is either merited or not merited.

    If one can be saved by meriting forgiveness then one can merit salvation.
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Yes, unique and unburdened by any acquaintance with the Gospels.

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    The question isn't what is meant by the sacrifice? The question is, What did John mean by 'the world'?
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sure, it is just dandy to ask why God chooses to rule in this way, rather than in some other way we can imagine. Can it be just to let the guilty party go free while punishing a "whipping boy?" Why does God say for the forgiveness of sin, blood must be shed?
    To ask such questions is not to suggest God's word is not trustworthy, but one to seek understanding of the ways of God.

    May I submit "Love" as the answer? Humans can understand that some people sacrifice themselves to protect others out of love for those being protected. A mother laying on top of her baby in a mass shooting.

    The wages of sin is death, or eternal separation from God. How does God commute this sentence and remain consistent with His rules? By allowing the substitution of another death to protect the person He loves. In this God is demonstrating His love for us.
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    This is not true. You have gotten eminent, Scriptural answers. You just won't yield to them.

    You have been soundly spanked on your revisionist history, so we can relegate this statement to the dungheap of apostacy. God's Two Pictures of the Atonement in the Sacrifices

    Hmm. You're asking why must the justice of God be satisfied?

    Why must God be God? Couldn't He be a man? Wouldn't we feel so much better about ourselves?
     
  8. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    better question is how can God remain Holy and still be able to justify sinners if Psa is not correct view. on what basis then?
     
  9. BasketFinch

    BasketFinch Active Member

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    The guilty?
     
  10. BasketFinch

    BasketFinch Active Member

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    That actually sustains their observation.
     
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I don't, really.

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

    Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death

    Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,

    Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ


    When a lost man believes on Jesus Christ, he gets plugged into the eternal life of Christ, and therefore dies with Christ back on the cross, and gets buried with him. He may not feel it, but the operation is nonetheless real.
    It's like getting plugged into a eternal current at a particular point (date of salvation) in the powerline but the plugged is in effect partaking of the power which is both before and after the plug-in point.
    On the day of salvation, a man gets baptized into the eternal power/life source of Christ and as such, he spiritually reaches back to die on the cross along with his Saviour. That is how that death is imputed to us. So the sin and the sinner himself were punished, just without the pain - thankfully.

    Also, I have twice (in 2 threads) asked you about the laying on of hands on the scapegoat, whereby the sins are transferred unto the goat who then dies for it, without an answer on your part.
    I'm not saying this contentiously, just telling you that I have a similar claim to your claim of not having received an answer.
     
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  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Stop that talking like a Baptist!

    I differ on the nuances, but your point is sound. Union with Christ is how He took our sins upon Himself. "Transfer" isn't really the best description. By laying one's hands on the head of the sacrifice, one was indentifying with the victim.
     
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think pretty much the same way.

    Sorry, I forgot to answer.

    I view the scapegoat as representing the sins of man being taken away. Remember what John the Baptist said about Christ? "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".

    That said, the goat did not die. It was released into the wilderness.

    The other goat was sacrificed.

    Neither animal actually bore the sins of mankind. They were used in ritual prescribed by God to foreshadow what was to come.
     
  14. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Ok so we agree that the sinner is punished, so one less obstacle to substitutionary penal retribution.

    Two sides of one coin.
    There was one Christ on the cross, not two, so both goats illustrate one sacrifice.

    The one is slain in judgment.
    The other is sent into the wilderness to illustrate:
    Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

    Why are they being taken away only after the laying on of hands? Answer: transfer.

    Well of course, but a ritual illustrating that Christ would bear the sins and would die for bearing them.
    The laying on of hands "transferred" the sins unto the goat who is thereupon punished.

    Paul transfers Onesimus' debt unto himself:
    Phm 1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;
    Phm 1:19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

    If Onesimus would have failed to pay the debt, he would have been punished for it.
    Now if Paul fails to pay the debt, it is he who would be punished for it.
    Or you can look at the debt itself as being a punishment. Courts hand out fines as punishment.

    That's penal and substitution.
     
    #34 George Antonios, Jun 14, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2022
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Does this poster deny that all humanity is guilty of falling short of the glory of God? Your guess is as good as mine.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    If I understand it correctly, he is saying the forgiveness is in place of punishment. Though Christ’s sacrifice makes salvation by faith possible, the sin is simply forgiven because it would violate God’s nature to punish Christ for someone else’s sin and it is nonsense to punish “sin” apart from the person committing the sin. If I understand his reasoning.

    peace to you
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The issue is sins are not things to be transfered or things to be punished (apart from the sinner).

    Sins are manifestations of ones sinfulness. The problem is not sinful actions but sinfulness.
     
  18. BasketFinch

    BasketFinch Active Member

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    Is this poster able to answer the question posited toward their statement in their post #26? Rather than make it personal toward the one who asked him to elaborate.
     
  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    1) We have already established that the sinner is punished in Christ
    2) a) Yes, sins are transferable, as evidenced by the laying on of hands
    b) Sin has a concrete manifestation in the spiritual realm which is invisible to the human eye.

    Job 14:17 My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

    Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

    Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

    As to the objection that those expressions are merely figurative, please see note #1 in signature.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for taking a stab at it. My view remains the assertion is gibberish.
     
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