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Featured Divine Mercy Chaplet for Protestants?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by CJP69, May 7, 2024.

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  1. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Someone closed the thread as I was writing this post, so I started a new thread.
    (Why this place shuts down threads while they're still active, I'll never understand!)

    As if one "hail Mary" isn't sufficient to disqualify it as anything that God would listen to!

    Luke 1:28 does not "hail" Mary in the sense that the Catholics use the term. It is a greeting. In English, the equivalent is saying "Hello!" (with the exclamation point). It is an excited greeting meant to convey happy tidings for which one should rejoice. The Catholic use of "hail Mary" is precisely where Hitler got the idea of "Hail Hitler!". The use of the term in this manner is used to exalt someone but God is no respecter of persons. He blesses some more than others but not because they are sinless and of immaculate birth, as the Catholics believe of Mary.

    The Catholic heresy surrounding Mary seems to have no boundary, either rational nor moral. There are five major things that the Catholics teach concerning Mary, all but one of which are not biblical in any way whatsoever, never mind rational or moral....

    Theotokos: Mary is the Mother of God

    Of the five, this is the only one that has any biblical basis in that, physically speaking, Mary was indeed Jesus' mother and if Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. Fine and dandy.

    Perpetual Virginity:
    Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus.

    The "and after" part of this doctrine is simple nonsense that just straight out ignores the scripture...

    Matthew 12:46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.

    Mark 3:31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.”

    Luke 8:19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”

    Matthew 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us?

    Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.​


    Immaculate Conception: Mary was conceived without original sin.

    Most non Catholics naturally assume that the phrase "immaculate conception" refers to the conception of Jesus in Mary but that isn't what it's talking about at all. "Immaculate Conception" is referring to Mary's conception!

    That is, of course, total heresy, without any evidence whatsoever and, frankly, just ridiculous. It is their attempt to explain how Jesus could be born without a sin nature, which just shows how idiotic the doctrine is because all it does it move the problem their trying to solve back one generation.

    Assumption: Mary was taken body and soul into heaven.

    This doctrine teaches that at the end of her time on earth, Mary was taken (or “assumed”) body and soul into heaven and that, therefore, Jesus and Mary are the only two people in heaven who are there in both body and soul.

    The purpose of this doctrine is a complete mystery, even to most Catholics. It has no basis in anything at all other than their tradition. They choose to believe this for literally no reason whatsoever.

    The doctrine wasn't even formally defined until 1950 by Pope Pius XII. However, according to the Catholics, the belief in Mary's Assumption has roots in early Christian tradition. There are writings from the early Church Fathers, such as St. John Damascene and St. Gregory of Tours, that supposedly mention Mary's Assumption, although I have not been able to confirm this claim.

    Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate: Mary plays a unique role in redemption.

    To be fair, "co-redemptrix" is not an official dogma of the Catholic Church, but rather a common theological opinion that has been debated within Catholic theology.

    Those who support the doctrine of Co-Redemptrix argue that Mary played a unique and significant role in the redemption of humanity by cooperating fully with God's plan for salvation. They emphasize Mary's cooperation with God's will, her willingness to bear Jesus, her suffering alongside Jesus during his Passion, and her ongoing intercessory role in the salvation of humanity.

    Proponents of the Co-Redemptrix doctrine often point to Mary's role as the "New Eve," who participated in the redemption of humanity just as Eve participated in the fall of humanity according to Christian tradition.

    Similarly, the doctrine of Mary as "Mediatrix" is also a very common but not an official doctrine of the Catholic church. It teaches that Mary plays a special role as a mediator between humanity and Jesus Christ.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and ONE Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,​

    Lastly, the Catholics teach that Mary is an advocate for believers, interceding on their behalf before God. So, as Mediatrix places here as a virtual equal with Christ, this doctrine makes puts her in the place of both Christ and the Holy Spirit!

    Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
    All three of these last doctrines are so heretical as to be blasphemous.
     
    #1 CJP69, May 7, 2024
    Last edited: May 7, 2024
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  2. robt.k.fall

    robt.k.fall Member

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    rsr closed it because it had turned into a flame war.
     
  3. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    You do not dictate how Catholics mean the word Hail, we mean it precisely as the Angels greeting meant it.

    Garbage, and slander. Hitler got the idea from Italian fascists in 1933, the same Italian fascists that were trying to rejuvenate the Roman pagan empire.
    Both nations governments were fascists borrowed from the pagan Roman fasci as the form of government and eagles as the standards of the Roman army.

    Very bad form and completely false.
     
  4. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    That could well be. I had not read the entire thread. My comment was based solely on the fact that it was open when I started writing the post and closed when I finished it and that such things have happened to me here in the past.
     
  5. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    As Calvin and Luther pointed out, these were not Jesus siblings but cousins.

    Cousins and other relatives were often referred to as brothers and sisters.
     
  6. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Do Catholics consider lying a sin?

    Okay, so there was a middle man. The Italian fascists got it from Catholicism.

    I didn't say that they got fascism from Catholicism, I said that their "Hail Hitler" was modeled after the Catholics "Hail Mary".

    Saying it doesn't make it so.
     
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  7. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Which is not supported by the text of scripture in any language and that you only believe because you are trying to preserve Mary's virginity, which the bible openly contradicts in multiple places.
     
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  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Calvin and Luther both RCC so ya they would mouth what they had been taught rather than want the bible says.

    So we have the option of believing what the RCC says or what the bible says. That is not a hard choice, trust the bible.
     
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  9. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Mary had to be without sin for the Incarnation to take place.

    God prophecied of Mary in Genesis “ I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed ( Adam and Eve under Satan’s dominion) and her seed ( Jesus ).

    Mary’s sinlessness is the enmity God placed between Satan and the woman, she was not under Satan’s dominion. She had no sin, original or personal. God saved her from all sin. “ The Almighty has done great things for me “

    David contracted original sin from his mother from conception.

    “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. 5 For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. 5 I've been out of step with you for a long time, in the wrong since before I was born.”

    Only sinless flesh could conceive Jesus. Jesus was formed from the total union of Mary’s flesh with The Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is Holy and can not form total union with flesh under dominion of a demon, they can never coexist in the same flesh.

    That is why those that accused Jesus of having a demon in Him made a serious mistake.

    That is why Mary’s sinlessness made her the deadliest enemy to Satan , because she could conceive the sinless Saviour.

    Do not accuse Jesus of being conceived of sinful flesh, you do not realise what you are saying.
     
  10. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Like you just did. Yeah.

    Another lie, stack them up. The Italian fascists were modelling after the Roman Empire as in “ Hail Caesar “ . Ever heard that one. Mussolini was promising a new Roman Empire.

    False. Never heard “ Hail Caesar “ how Romans greeted their supreme political leaders. The fascists imitated Roman symbols, behaviours and the form of government on the Roman fasci. The Eagle symbolising military prowess.

    Either you deliberately slur or you are extremely ignorant of history.

    Either way repent.
     
  11. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Not even the founders of Bible alone theology are believed by you guys. You do know they both made their deductions of Mary’s perpetual virginity from the scriptures alone?
     
  12. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    I think some Catholics think that all protestants agree with nearly everything Luther and Calvin said. Cathode brought it up as though citing Luther and Calvin was some sort of trump card.
     
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  13. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    What?

    We know that such a deduction is impossible.

    However, an appeal to scripture would go much further with us than any appeal to Luther or Calvin. Why don't you present to us their supposed biblical argument, if it actually exists? That would actually be interesting! (Seriously)
     
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  14. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    I can establish every word I've said. You, on the otherhand are either delusional or are just making thing up as you go. I have no doubt that there are some Catholics who may mean "Hail Mary" in a manner equivalent to a mere happy greeting but the vast majority believe it to be a means to acknowledge her lofty status as is consistent with the other four doctrines that I described.

    It was no lie. I am not the source of the information I've posted on this thread. I acknowledge that it is possible that what you posited here is true. I'll have to do more research.

    Regardless, I do know for a fact, that the overwhelmingly vast majority of Catholics use the phrase in manner that is intended to exalt Mary, which, as I just said, is in keeping with the other doctrines which I've described.0

    Plausible. For now, I'll concede the point.

    Don't overstate your position. Even if, and I do still say "IF" I've repeated a falsehood on this specific point, it would not come close to demonstrating that I am "extremely ignorant of history".

    I have no problem changing my position when shown good reason to do so. You might have simply made the "Hail Caesar" argument before showing up with a bunch of hostility. Not that I care that much. It is, at the end of the day, a minor point and doesn't touch the rest of what I've presented, the vast majority of which you believe. As such, it is you who needs to repent.
     
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  15. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    It should be a trump card, see they were under the impression that they were guided by The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, with their new Bible alone theology. Was that true, or were they kidding themselves.
    Each time a Bible alone successor comes along and interprets a conflicting interpretation, it proves Calvin, Luther and the Bible alone theology they came up with manifestly false.
     
  16. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Have a little faith, with Bible alone theology, no deduction is impossible. Deductions up to and including that Jesus is a spaceman. And there is no arbiter to say they are wrong, they are citing scripture.

    I have presented from Calvin and Luther’s lectures on the subject in previous posts, but don’t have me chase your tennis balls, go retrieve their wisdom for yourself it’s all out there.
     
  17. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    We use it because it is scriptural, along with the greeting of Elizabeth “ blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. “

    People have called it sewage blaspheming the word. But these are the words of holy scripture here that we pray, Catholics pray the words of scripture and meditate on the life of Jesus in scripture.

    Like the Rosary is our private meditation on Jesus life, where we engage all our heart, mind and strength, meditating from Jesus conception through to his ascension into heaven.
    And taken by Grace many times, we are brought present at those times in Jesus life, which we call contemplation.

    Good man. Then I won’t press the point, and I will assume the best of you next time, if you will do the same for me. There’s a lot of misinformation out there.
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    And I am sure you realize that they were just holding to what they had been taught in the RCC. So we can excuse their errors but you on the other hand should know better as you have access to better information and should be able to see the errors in the RCC theology.
     
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  19. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    No, Calvin was purely citing scripture.

    “There have been certain strange folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matt 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! for the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company. There we see that he had never known her person for he was separated from his wife. He could marry another all the more because he could not enjoy the woman to whom he was betrothed; but he rather desired to forfeit his rights and abstain from marriage, being yet always married: he preferred, I say, to remain thus in the service of God rather than to consider what he might still feel that he could come to. He had forsaken everything in order that he might subject himself fully to the will of God.

    And besides this, our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second. Thus we see the intention of the Holy Spirit. This is why to lend ourselves to foolish subtleties would be to abuse Holy Scripture, which is, as St. Paul says, “to be used for our edification.” John Calvin.

    So to lend yourself to “ foolish subtleties would be to abuse Holy Scripture “

    Don’t give me that, Calvin had exactly the same Scripture we have. Isn’t that all the best information we need according to you guys.

    Besides the most convincing argument for me is not just the early reformers, but all the ancient and Apostolic Churches from the beginning have all believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity, all and without question, unanimously. Even when they were in schism amongst themselves about other things, on this, they were always in agreement.

    Mary’s virginity stands as God’s permanent Sign of Christ’s Divinity, not conceived of man.

    “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a Sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:14

    Mary is the Sign.

    “And a great Sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” Revelation 12:1
     
  20. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    One can be wrong about why they're right.

    Perhaps the Holy Spirit was involved and perhaps He was not. If so, they were obviously right. If not, then they got it right anyway.

    Your characterization of the position isn't right, though. It has never been a "bible alone" theology. It's always been the scripture and sound reason.

    Saying it doesn't make it so.

    This is a classic example of what Catholics (and most human beings for that matter) think counts as sound reasoning. It's foolishness that a child could unravel. The Catholic downfall was the printing press and Luther's audacity to translate it into a commonly understood language. Even still, Luther and Calvin were mostly Catholic in their doctrine. Both of them practically worshiped Augustine and kept nearly every word of Augustinian theology fully intact. It's taken centuries to undo what the Catholics have spent millennia damaging.
     
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