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Featured Do all things work together for good?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Feb 29, 2024.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The exhaustive determinists think everything that happens is predestined by God, and we should accept it as God's will. This is a destructive heresy because we are to strive to follow Christ, and when we fail, to confess our misses, and redouble our effort to improve our walk with Christ. Our choices to trespass are not predestined. God is not the author of sin.

    Romans 8:28 NASB
    And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

    This verse which says "all things work together for good for those who love God and have been called according to His purpose," can be understood in at least two ways. God predestined all the sins and trespasses of born anew believers or the alternate understanding, i.e. the consequences of our missteps will not adversely impact the future outcome of our lives.. The actual idea is that "all things work together for good" refers to the end result of our life, which is eternal life with Christ, rather than the result of sinful thoughts or deeds actually producing good.

    Here is an interpretive translation:
    We know that God causes all the thoughts and deeds of those who love God and have been called into His kingdom according to His purpose, to work together to produce good, as they have been made holy and blameless.

    Obviously the idea that everything that happens is good once saved denies reality. Do we really think our choice to trespass is good, or only that the result in being called means the result of our miss will not cause us to lose our blessing of salvation in the afterlife?

    Another alternate view is to say "all" refers to the trust and devotion of those born anew, which then makes the verse straightforward and easy to understand.

    The addition of "things" seems to expand the scope of the contextual message, all the things in contextual view, God was implementing His foreknow plan of redemption which predestined being born anew in the image of His Son, and called those of His choosing into His kingdom, and justified them with the washing of regeneration, and lastly glorified them spiritually with eternal life. Therefore, God cause all His blessings to work together for good.... is probably the actual message of the verse

    Romans 8:28 (Interpretive Translation)
    We know that God causes all His blessings to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
     
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Van, I just can't go with this interpretation. I won't call it a "translation" because obviously it is not. Here is the entire verse in Greek and the Greek word for "blessings" is not there.

    Romans 8:28 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

    God IS sovereign. At the same time, God does NOT make people sin. We freely choose our actions. And God has given the devil a temporary rule over this horrible world. And Satan can only do what God allows.

    The Christian life isn't all about blessings. There are nightmares, too. Of our own making and of the devil's making.

    For those who LOVE God, and are called according to his purpose, ALL things - ALL thing work together for His good and purposes.

    I've made terrible mistakes in my life. And devil has stirred the pot with me. I am the sole caretaker of a disabled man - my brother whom I love. I have medical issues. I have no one to help me or to call on.

    These things are NOT good. They never will be. Ever. But God takes it all and uses them for his purposes and will. And that is very good. His purposes!

    It's like biscuits. You make homeade biscuits from flour, buttermilk, baking powder, salt, and butter. People don't eat these ingredients all by themselves. Flour tastes gross, etc.

    But in the hands of a master cook and in the presence of heat, things turn out well.

    I don't know WHY my brother is mentally retarded, autistic, legally blind, has a curvature of the spine, can't hear well, can't speak well, and has no one. Maybe it is to teach me how to love. And that's a good thing.

    But God knows and I accept that and accept that He controls the good of ALL things for those who love him and are called by him.
     
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ??

    18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Mt 28
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Yes God is sovereign, in that He causes or allows everything that happens to happen.

    2) Yes, God does not cause people to sin, He allows them to sin.

    3) Yes, we can choose our actions including choosing to believe in God and His Christ without being enabled by Irresistible Grace.

    4) Yes, God allows Satan to be an adversary of humanity.

    5) Yes, the Christian life is not all about blessings, as all those who carry their cross and follow Him have experienced.

    6) No the text in Greek does not say "all things" but rather just "all" which refers only to whatever the context indicates, not everything imaginable. Rather than "all things." an unwarranted expansion not consistent with the context, perhaps "all these things" would be a better translation. And of course, those would be God's blessings!

    7) All I am saying is you base your interpretation, not on the text, but on a poor translation.
     
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Yes Christ has all authority, and @Scarlett O. is not questioning His authority.
    Look at what she said "God has given the devil a temporary rule over this horrible world."

    Now you have a few options
    1] the devil has power by his own authority
    2] the devil has power by Christ's authority
    3] he has no power at all
     
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  6. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    So what happened to the devil? Did he disintegrate?

    The New Testament is full of references to the devil being the "prince of the air", "the prince of the power of the air", "the god of this world", "a roaring lion looking for someone to devour", "the ruler of this world", and "an angel of light".

    He is NOT sovereign. His control is limited by having to have permission from God.

    His power and evilness have nothing to do with the verse you quoted. He cannot erase the authority of Christ. But he is REAL and in charge of a portion of this world.
     
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  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    There is an interesting variant reading in the oldest Greek manuscript, the P46 (between 125-15 AD), as well as the Vatican and Alexandrian (4th & 5th Cents):

    "συνεργεῖ ὁ θεός", where "God" is the subject of the verb, and "all things" as the object.

    “God works all things with,” or “co-operates in all things.”
     
  8. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Van, I have spent way too much time looking in 47 Bible translations/paraphrases - including the most pathetic Passion "Translation" and I cannot find anywhere that Romans 8:28 contains the words blessings.

    AND - I cannot find this Interpretive Translation that you quote from. Can you provide a link to it, please?

    So you don't believe that God can take a bad thing and work it for our good?

    What if a man has a heart attack at work. While at the hospital, they get his heart under control, but find that he has the early stages of cancer.

    That heart attack, while a bad thing, was used for good - to find the cancer and eradicate it while early.

    I'd like a link please to the Interpretative Translation. Thanks in advance.
     
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  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The Greek adjective ἀγᾰθός can also mean "blessing"
     
  10. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I'm not trying to obstinate, but can you show me the lexicon you found that in?
     
  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I also have two disabled children so I know where you are coming from, so how does this work for good for those that love God?... Those that know that life not always a bed of rose, are taught by personal experience the love of God and its not about me... Its about others... Its not about the doctrine, although doctrine is important, and the Lord taught plenty but he was always a man of action... I heard a preacher say I heard a wonderful sermon and I thought it was great, then I saw a walking sermon and that was a miracle... How many miracles have you seen?... When I really think about it, have I taught my disabled children the love of God or through God's love have they taught me?... Brother Glen:)
     
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  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Don't think so. ἀγᾰθός is an adjective, but "blessing" is a noun. Basic grammar.

    I'm with
    This link is broken, but here is Liddell-Scott from my BibleWorks. Nothing about "blessing" here. (The Greek font did not carry over, but the English is all there.)

    100 avgaqopoii<a
    avgaqopoii<a, h`, well doing, N.T. From avgaqopoio,j
    101 avgaqopoio,j
    avgaqo&poio,j, o,n, (poie,w) doing good, beneficent.
    102 avgaqo,j
    avga±qo,j Îa±gÐ( h,( o,n: (deriv. uncertain):-good, Lat. bonus:
    I. of persons,
    1. in early times, good, gentle, noble, in reference to birth, opp. to kakoi,( patro.j dV ei;mV avgaqoi/o( qea. de, me gei,nato mh,thr Il.; avgaqoi. kai. evx avgaqw/n, Lat. boni bonis prognati, Plat.:-with this early sense was associated that of wealth and power, like Lat. optimus quisque in Sallust and Cicero; esp. in the phrase kaloi. kavgaqoi, (v. kalokavgaqo,j).
    2. good, brave, since these qualities were attributed to the Chiefs, Il.:- avgaqo.j evn u`smi,nh|( boh.n avgaqo,j( pu.x avgaqo,j etc., Hom.; avgÅ ta. pole,mia( ta. politika, Hdt., etc.;-also c. dat., avgÅ pole,mw| Xen.;-and, avgÅ ei;j ti( peri, ti( pro,j ti Plat., etc.; lastly, c. inf., avgÅ ma,cesqai( i`ppeu,esqai, good at fighting, etc., Hdt.
    3. good, in moral sense, Plat., etc.
    4. avgaqou/ dai,monoj, as a toast, 'to the good Genius,' Ar.
    II. of things,
    1. good, serviceable, VIqa,kh avgaqh. kourotro,foj Od.; avgÅ toi/j tokeu/si( th/| po,lei Xen.; c. gen., ei; ti oi=da puretou/ avg. good for fever, Id.:- avgaqo,n [evsti], c. inf., it is good to do so and so, Hom., etc.
    2. avgaqo,n( to,, a good, of persons, fi,lon( o] me,giston avgÅ ei=nai, fasi Xen.; evpV avgaqw/| toi/j poli,taij Ar.:- to. avgaqo,n or tavgaqo,n, the good, summum bonum, Plat., etc.:-in pl., avgaqa,( ta,, the goods of fortune, wealth, Hdt., etc.; also good qualities, of a horse, Xen.
    III. instead of the regular degrees of comparison, many forms are used,-Comp. avmei,nwn( avrei,wn( belti,wn( krei,sswn( lwi<wn (lw,|wn), Ep. be,lteroj( lwi<teroj( fe,rteroj;- Sup. a;ristoj( be,ltistoj( kra,tistoj( lw,i?stoj (lw/|stoj), Ep. be,ltatoj( ka,rtistoj( fe,rtatoj( fe,ristoj.
    IV. the Adv. is usually eu=: avgaqw/j in late writers.
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    From Liddell and Scott

    good, blessing, benefit, of persons or things

    GOOD no doubt also includes BLESSINGS

    No point in playing with word meanings. ;)
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What a waste. What does the "all" refer to? His blessings!

    The fact "pas" is translated about 170 times as "all things" rather than "all these" is a translation travesty. To determine the scope of "all" we must look at the context.

    And please stop attributing to me the bogus idea that God cannot use something intended for bad, for good.
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Did you not notice? I just posted the Liddell-Scott definition, and "blessing" was not there. Where are you getting your information? Because it is not from LS.

    And no, "good" does NOT include "blessings." They are two different lexical units.
     
  17. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    II. of things,

    1. good, serviceable, Ἰθάκη .. ἀ. κουροτρόφος Od.9.27, etc.; ἀ. τοῖς τοκεῦσι, τῇ πόλει X.Cyn.13.17: c. gen., εἴ τι οἶδα πυρετοῦ ἀ. good for it, Id.Mem.3.8.3; ἑλκῶν Thphr.HP9.11.1.

    2. of outward circumstances, αἰδὼς οὐκ ἀ. κεχρημένῳ ἀνδρὶ παρεῖναι Od.17.347; εἰπεῖν εἰς ἀγαθόν to good purpose, Il.9.102; ὁ δὲ πείσεται εἰς ἀ. περ for his own good end, 11.789; οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη 2.204:—ἀγαθόν [ἐστι], c. inf., it is good to do so and so, Il.7.282, 24.130, Od.3.196, etc.

    3. morally good, πρῆξις Democr.177; ἔργα Emp.112.2, cf. Ep.Rom.2.7, etc.

    4. ἀγαθόν, τό, good, blessing, benefit, of persons or things, ὦ μέγα ἀ. σὺ τοῖς φίλοις X.Cyr.5.3.20; φίλον, ὃ μέγιστον ἀ. εἶναί φασι Id.Mem.2.4.2, cf. Ar.Ra.74, etc.; as term of endearment for a baby, blessing!, treasure!, Men.Sam.28:—ἀγαθόν τινα δεδρακέναι, πεποιηκέναι confer a benefit on .., Th.3.68, Lys.13.92; ἐπʼ ἀγαθῷ in epitaphs, SEG31.797, 1533, etc. (Rom.imp.) τινος for one’s good, Th.5.27, X.Cyr.7.4.3; ἐπʼ ἀ. τοῖς πολίταις Ar.Ra.1487; οὐκ ἐπʼ ἀ. for no good end, Th.1.131; ἐπʼ οὐδενὶ ἀ. τῆς Ἑλλάδος X.HG5.2.35:—in pl., ἡ ἐπʼ ἀγαθοῖς γεναμένη (sic) κατασπορά PFlor.21.10 (iii a.d.):—τὸ ἀ. or τἀ., the good, Epich.171.5, cf. Pl.R.506b, 508e, Arist.Metaph.1091a31, etc.:—in pl., ἀγαθά, τά, goods of fortune, treasures, wealth, Hdt.2.172, Lys.13.91, X.Mem.1.2.63, etc.; ἀγαθὰ πράττειν fare well, Ar.Av.1706; also, good things, dainties, Thgn.1000, Ar.Ach.873, etc.: good qualities, τοῖς ἀ., οἷς ἔχομεν ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ Isoc.8.32, cf. Democr.37; good points, of a horse, εἰ τἄλλα πάντα ἀ. ἔχοι, κακόπους δʼ εἴη X.Eq.1.2.

    Henry George Liddell et al., A Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1996), 4.
     
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Apparently the context of Romans 8:28 (verses 26 and 27) are beyond discernment. What are the contextual "blessings?"

    1) God helps our weaknesses.
    2) Guides our prayer.
    3) Intercedes for us using groans conveying deep meaning.
    4) And Christ knows those deep meanings conveyed by the Spirit.
    5) God's will is to intercede for those in Christ, made holy by the washing of regeneration.

    And all "these blessings" work together for good...
     
  19. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I look at the verse in Romans 8:28 as something a believer takes by faith;
    "all good things" is the hope we have through faith.

    The passage in Romans 8:26-30 are a continuation of the statement Paul made in Romans 8:16-17;

    Romans 8:16–17 (NASB 2020)
    The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
    and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

    Romans 8:18 (NASB 2020)
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us

    (for all things work together for good.)​

    Romans 8:23b (NASB 2020)
    ...even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body

    (for all things work together for good.)​

    Romans 8:24–25 (NASB 2020)
    For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
    But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it

    (for all things work together for good.)​

    Sufferings and groaning mean somethings not right... they certainly are not blessings!
    But just as creation awaits its redemption, so do the children of God.

    Romans 8:28–29 (NASB 2020)
    ...we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
    For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;

    Rob
     
    #19 Deacon, Mar 2, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2024
  20. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    The image I see is the saints of old suffering as they are burned at the stake, trusting that God will make things right.

    We endure suffering, we don't have to like it, suffering is not a blessing!
    Saying suffering is a blessing belittles those that are enduring suffering.

    Suffering is part of life, but through faith, we can trust that God will bless us as he will bless all his children, by the redemption.

    Rob
     
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