Do Anti-Calvinists Believe God is a Robot?

[KenH]

Anti-Calvinists are always eager to say that because the Bible teaches man's inability to come to Christ without God the Father's effectual drawing that this makes man into nothing more than a robot. I wonder how they handle these two verses.

(2 Tim 2:13 NKJV) If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

(Heb 6:18 NKJV) that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

Since the Anti-Calvinists claim that unless one has the ability to make a choice he is a robot, then it would appear that by their own definition they must claim that God Himself is a robot since these verses say that God has no choice in not denying Himself and in not lying. So if in certain areas God has no choice, it is reasonable to accept the Biblical teaching of man's inability in certain areas, namely in being unable to come to Christ without the effectual drawing of God the Father. Unless, of course, the Anti-Calvinists wish to follow their own logic and say that God is a robot. But I doubt they will. But I am also not sure they will admit the error in their doctrine.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 27, 2002, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[ForumChaplain]

No!!! We believe that your portrayal of him as such is a gross misunderstanding of scripture. You portray him a a robot, while denying that he is in order to salvage your docturine. A duck, is a DUCK, is a DUCK.

If you know that he is not a duck, stop portraying him as walking like a duck, waddling like a duck, and quacking like a duck.

 

[Rev. G]

Gee, Chappie, I've never seen any of the Reformed folk on this section, or elsewhere, refer to God as a "duck."

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Gee, Chappie, I've never seen any of the Reformed folk on this section, or elsewhere, refer to God as a "duck."

You quack me up.

Be kind to your fine feathered friends...

 

[shilo]

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself

Now See Ken there you go tearing up the Bible and divorcing verses from the context to try to prove some kind of point
Lets try to get the whole thing shall we??

If we suffer, we shall reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself..

this is dealing with the 1,000 reign of Christ on this earth. Not salvation!

on top of that it is dealing with already saved people Chirst will never deny a saved born again child of God. Which means no lose of salvation..however you must first be a child of God in order to for him not to deny you.

(Heb 6:18 NKJV) that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

Ken..Ken..Ken..you sure can make a mess out of scripture can't you?? (sigh)

first of all this I have no idea what you're trying to say by pulling this verse..
So I don't know how to answer it. i think it's quite clear though that:

1) God Can't lie
2. WE have a hope that is set before us if we are saved born again..

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Anti-Calvinists are always eager to say that because the Bible teaches man's inability to come to Christ without God the Father's effectual drawing that this makes man into nothing more than a robot. I wonder how they handle these two verses.

Not effectual drawing - such isn't in the BIble. God draws all men - remember that many are called, yet few are chosen.

Since the Anti-Calvinists claim that unless one has the ability to make a choice he is a robot, then it would appear that by their own definition they must claim that God Himself is a robot since these verses say that God has no choice in not denying Himself and in not lying.

Terrible logic. It is impossible for me to fly. Now does this mean I'm a robot? Hardly. God, as the standard of perfection, cannot lie. This in no way affects his free choice. I would maintain that non-Christians do not have the choice to refrain from lying. It's just something we all do. Believe it or not, this fits in perfectly with Arminian theology.

So if in certain areas God has no choice, it is reasonable to accept the Biblical teaching of man's inability in certain areas, namely in being unable to come to Christ without the effectual drawing of God the Father.

That's the biggest leap of logic I've ever seen you make. God chose from the beginning to set the rules. He chooses not to lie. There are several areas in which I do not have a choice. I cannot have brown eyes. Does this make me a robot? Certainly not! However, what does the Bible say about those who become Christians? They have to choose to believe or reject Christ. Read the parable of the Master's party, where the rich people heard the call and said no, while the poor people said yes. Again, effectual drawing isn't found in Scripture.

Unless, of course, the Anti-Calvinists wish to follow their own logic and say that God is a robot. But I doubt they will. But I am also not sure they will admit the error in their doctrine.

It is most certainly not an error in doctrine. It is an error in your attempt at logic.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
God chose from the beginning to set the rules. He chooses not to lie.

Wrong, Scott. The Bible does not say that God chose not to lie. The Bible says that God cannot lie. It is an attribute of God that He cannot lie.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
God chose from the beginning to set the rules. He chooses not to lie.

Wrong, Scott. The Bible does not say that God chose not to lie. The Bible says that God cannot lie. It is an attribute of God that He cannot lie.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

</font>[/QUOTE]You missed the point completely - that or you ignored it. God chose the rules that the universe would operate on. He chose for things to work the way they do, on so many levels, in so many ways. Could God not choose his own attributes? That's a very interesting question - one that is ridden with philosophical and spiritual implications. The fact is this, God is not a robot, and neither are humans.

In the Calvinist scheme, there are two sets of people. The destitute who have no chance at all of salvation. They were born sinners, through no fault of their own, and will die sinners, again, through no fault of their own, since it is IMPOSSIBLE to do otherwise. They have been born to be damned. The other group is made up of people who were born sinners, and through no volition of their own, receive a new spirit through which they have no choice but to make a choice to follow Christ. They have been born to go to Heaven.

In other words, through the foreordination and foreknowledge of God, there are some people who were created to be saved and others to be damned. It is logically impossible to say otherwise, within the framework of Calvinism.

Let me say in the strongest way possible. I do not and will never serve a God who arbitrarily damns some and saves others, even if the number was 3,000,000,000 to 10, (which according to Jesus Christ is wrong - there will be a larger number in Hell than Heaven - according to the Bible, and John Calvin as well). If God arbitrarily elects certain individuals to be saved, then he ipso facto actively passes over others.

Yes, you can have that kind of God. Perhaps it suits your personality. I really don't know.

However, the God that I find in the Bible is one of love and compassion, who wishes all people to be saved. He created a system in which man can choose to follow or choose to reject. He chose a system in which man has the responsibility to share the gospel with others. God is looking across the earth, searching here and there, for hearts who will be totally committed to Him. If they choose not to, they have to face the consequences of their sin. However, if they choose to follow Christ, they can live in eternity with Him.

That's the God who I serve, Ken. That's the God of the Bible. I'm very sorry you do not see it that way, but you choose to see him through a Calvinistic (or Spurgeonistic, pick your poison) lens. Maybe it is because the theology you grew up with with so far on the other end of the spectrum. Who knows?

What I do know is that Calvinists are in the minority among the Christians in the world. The majority of believers across the world have found God to be one who gives man a choice. They believe that Christ died for all men. They believe that God wants all people, everywhere to be saved.

Christianity is not a religion; it's a relationship, and it offers hope. God desires fellowship with his believers, a fellowship that is done out of free choice, not one that he causes to happen in the first place.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
What I do know is that Calvinists are in the minority among the Christians in the world.

True doctrine is not determined by majority vote. I believe in the coming golden age of the church that believers that teach the doctrines of grace will be in the vast majority, maybe even 100% of believers.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Pete Richert]

Let me say in the strongest way possible. I do not and will never serve a God who arbitrarily damns some and saves others, even if the number was 3,000,000,000 to 10,

When I go to heaven, I will accept God for who He is. I would never dare to say that I would not follow him if I found out he choose me before the foundation of the world for his own glory, or if I found out I had the choice all alone and choose wisely. I know that God is good, the Bible is clear about that. It is not so clear about predestination/free will, but whatever is true is good, because God is good.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
What I do know is that Calvinists are in the minority among the Christians in the world.

True doctrine is not determined by majority vote. I believe in the coming golden age of the church that believers that teach the doctrines of grace will be in the vast majority, maybe even 100% of believers.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

</font>[/QUOTE]And I'm thankful that Calvinism is a dying theology that is on its way out. I am confident that in the millenium, immediately following the tribulation period, people will realize that God's desire is for all men to be saved and will reject this silly notion that GOd only selects certain people, leaving the others to be damned.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pete Richert:
When I go to heaven, I will accept God for who He is. I would never dare to say that I would not follow him if I found out he choose me before the foundation of the world for his own glory, or if I found out I had the choice all alone and choose wisely. I know that God is good, the Bible is clear about that. It is not so clear about predestination/free will, but whatever is true is good, because God is good.[/QB]

If you believe that God is good then you cannot believe that God arbitrarily leaves people without a chance for heaven. You cannot believe that God would create a group of people that have no choice but to sin and then no choice but to spend eternity in utter torment. You cannot believe that God would merely pass by and watch his creation suffer such terrible things for something they cannot help.

If God is good, then such things simply cannot happen, and such things are not found in the WOrd.

 

[Rev. G]

And I'm thankful that Calvinism is a dying theology that is on its way out.

It was around long before Calvin, and it will be around long after we're gone. And, actually, it is on the rise in our day and age. Much thanks to John MacArthur, R. C. Sproul, John Piper, Alistair Begg, and a whole bunch of others.

 

[Rev. G]

Arbitrarily? No.

Sovereignly? Wisely? In goodness? Yes.

"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ by Himself, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL."
- Eph. 1:4-5

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the PURPOSE OF HIM who WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL."
- Eph. 1:11

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 'For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?' 'Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?' For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."
- Romans 11:33-36

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ by Himself, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL."
- Eph. 1:4-5

He predestined a Church that would follow him. Inidividual election is in no way mentioned in Ephesians 1 - it's all corporate.

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the PURPOSE OF HIM who WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL."
- Eph. 1:11

Corporate.

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 'For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?' 'Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?' For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."
- Romans 11:33-36

And what does this hymn follow? A discussion of corporate election!

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
It was around long before Calvin, and it will be around long after we're gone. And, actually, it is on the rise in our day and age. Much thanks to John MacArthur, R. C. Sproul, John Piper, Alistair Begg, and a whole bunch of others. [/QB]

Check out the growth percentages of various denominations that would be lean toward Calvinism as opposed to those that are Arminian in nature (which includes Catholicism, Penecostalism, and the majority of Southern Baptists.)

Tell me again that Calvinism is on the rise.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Tell me again that Calvinism is on the rise.

Perhaps you should examine, Scott, the tremendous rise and influence of Founders Ministries within the SBC.

I am also quite saddened that you wish to buttress your arguments by what the majority may believe instead of using Biblical argumentation. I had come to expect more of you, my friend.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 28, 2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Arbitrarily? No.

The problem is that it seems arbitrary if it is predestination. And this makes Romans 2 almost meaningless! God does not need to attract anyone to repentance via kindness or anything else if He has already chosen them! And to the rest of the unwashed masses, that does not seem very kind at all!

Sovereignly? Wisely? In goodness? Yes.

And kindly, giving us a choice to respond to Him.

"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ by Himself, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL."
- Eph. 1:4-5

If we add Bible to Bible and realize that we have a choice to believe or not believe, then this verse becomes slightly different in meaning, indicating that those who believe were predestined to become holy and blameless and were predestined to become adopted. This is in line with the fact that Jesus turns none away that come to Him and Paul's mention in Philippians 1:6 that God will complete the good work He began. The point of the above quote that Calvinists use so often is not that the people themselves were predestined, but that the destiny of believers was predestined before the foundation of the world.

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the PURPOSE OF HIM who WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL."
- Eph. 1:11

Yes, and it was and is His will that those who choose to cast themselves on Christ will have obtained an inheritance with Christ. You see, you cannot choose one bit of Bible and leave out others. It all goes together.

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 'For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?' 'Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?' For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."
- Romans 11:33-36

Exactly! So please don't think that you understand something the Bible itself does not indicate. God loves all of us far more than you know.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Helen:
1)God does not need to attract anyone to repentance via kindness or anything else if He has already chosen them

2)God loves all of us far more than you know.

1)God uses means. It sounds like you are saying that He cannot and be gracious to His elect at the same time.

2)God is far more sovereign than you know.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Perhaps you should examine, Scott, the tremendous rise and influence of Founders Ministries within the SBC.

I have. It's not as "tremendous" as one would think. I would venture that 80% of Southern Baptists are Arminian.

I am also quite saddened that you wish to buttress your arguments by what the majority may believe instead of using Biblical argumentation. I had come to expect more of you, my friend.

Don't consider it Biblical argument as much as it is the satisfaction of seeing true Biblical doctrine triumph over the unBiblical Calvinism.