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Featured Do Calvinists believe man has free will after salvation?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Jordan Kurecki, Jul 1, 2015.

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  1. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Scripture teaches God controls even the roll of dice, "
    33 The dice are thrown into the lap, but their every decision is from the Lord" Proverbs 16:33

    God is the first cause of all causes, if he isn't, who is?

    Brother Joe
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    The mind of man plans his way,
    But the Lord directs his steps. Proverbs 16:9
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Inspector Javerts, here is what I said, the second time:
    Does this say his knowledge causes the predestination? Nope. Thus with a totally predestined future, God can know it perfectly. Before you attack me, at least determine what I said.

    Thus, I presented the view of Calvinism correctly. And it is bogus.

    Next, you offer up a gratuitous insult, probably because I hold your view to also be bogus. Fair enough.

    Lets say we are playing with loaded dice. I know they are loaded, you do not. You think when you bet a 6 will come up, you have an actual opportunity, a 6 may come up. But, it turns out its a seven. I win. If, I know what will happen with 100% certainty, then only that one outcome can occur. It is predestined. How it is predestined does not matter. The outcome is certain. For you to jump up and down saying it was not my knowledge but the loaded dice is irrelevant. You had no chance to win.
    Now lets say an Evangelist happens by and presents the gospel. I know with 100% certainty you will reject it. He could do a dandy job. You could be open to God. A choir could arrive in a bus and sing "just as I am." You still reject it. It does not matter why, brain tumor, God had hardened your heart, you were unwilling to trust in something other than yourself. None of it matters. You had no opportunity to trust in Jesus.

    Pointing to a mysterious difference between certainty and necessity does not resolve your problem. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. If the future is known with 100% certainty, that one outcome is predestined by something (lets call it necessity - :) ) and therefore all we do is exercise our non-choice in accordance with whatever predestined it.
     
    #23 Van, Jul 2, 2015
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Exactly, spot on! We operate within the purview God allows. If the Lord allows us to fulfill our plans, or make decisions which result in alternate outcomes, then those autonomous choices are in accordance with His step direction.

    Exhaustive determinism is unbiblical. The verse does not read, the mind of man plans exactly what God predestined would be planned, and therefore God has already directed his steps. Not how it reads.
     
  5. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    Yes, I've read the verse, the whole Bible even.....I believe it, and yet, alas, I'm not a Calvinist.
     
  6. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #26 Inspector Javert, Jul 2, 2015
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  7. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Is God the first cause of the sinful acts of man??? (Seems your reasoning meant to uphold Calvinism/Determinism is flawed. ;) )

    By whose will does sin happen, or IOWs what is first cause of the temptation to sin?

    Is man’s will to sin free/volitional or has this choice been predetermined by God?

    By your conclusion above: Is it then your interpretation of Proverbs 16:33 that God "controls" man's decisions to make him sin??? Is that what you are implying here?!

    (Jas 1:13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
     
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Paul laid that out in Romans 7:

    but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


    The flesh is still ensnared in sin, yet the soul is been set free from sin. That is why Christians struggle at times in their walk with God.
     
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    And we will always choose that which is most pleasing.
     
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Bingo! :thumbsup::applause:
     
  11. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Brother Benjamin,

    You answered my post that contained a question of "God is the first cause of all causes, if he is not, who is?", by not answering my question, but rather posing me a list questions? What kind of answer is that? Answer my question that I posed first, then I will be glad to answer each and everyone of your questions! Fair enough?

    Brother Joe
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here we have it in a nutshell. If I know something will happen with 100% certainty, then something has predestined that one outcome. It does not matter what. Certainty of the future by logical necessity requires predestination of that future.

    Bottom line, I did not say knowledge of the future with certainty causes predestination, I said Calvinism teaches knowledge of the future with 100% certainty presumes that future was predestined by something.

    No amount of jabberwocky will change reality.
     
  13. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Brother,

    Jesus often gave a question back when asked a question because He wanted His audience to go away, to use their own God given mind gifted from the beginning of creation with sense, reason and intellect – human volition, by which they will genuinely be held responsible for the condition of our hearts. Jesus wanted us to stop and think about our perception of God and question our own doctrinal beliefs about God’s Nature and what His plans are.

    My questions are posed in order to draw out the truth in your argument by directing you to examine the substance of your claim, or IOWs the reasoning behind your claim by which you draw your conclusion. In this case you must first deal with the origin of sin and the “Problem Of Evil” for your premise of God being the “first cause of all causes” to stand as true.

    Your interpretations, which I will submit are merely designed to conform to systematic doctrines of Calvinism/Determinism are meaningless unless YOU FIRST address the origins of sin/evil regarding your question.

    So IOWs as for answering your question it must first be broken down, which the first premise poses (supposedly supported by the scripture you gave) that God is the first causes of all causes, which by any rational critical thinking skills must include evil and thereby carry down to the last details of the sins of man (by which I countered your interpretation by comparing scripture to scripture) is where I began.

    In consideration of the Nature of God I can without a doubt tell you that your first premise is false. As to your second premise, which you should probably understand is already doomed to come to a false conclusion considering your first premise, the first cause of evil was man with the help of Satan, which was made possible through the divine design of God’s creatures to have the free will/human volition to disobey God – by which each and every one will “genuinely be held responsible” for being the “cause” of except for the grace of our Loving Creator who provided the Way of salvation for ALL who love and believe the truth with that precious gift of a mind to all mankind to have the ability to reason through human volition/free will.

    With that these scriptures come to mind:

    (Rom 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    (Rom 1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    (Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    (Rom 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    (Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    (Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    (Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


    Brother, I consider creation a genuine loving gift to all men which includes the ability to understand God's Omnibenevolent Nature to hold true with His design of human volitional creatures while His other attributes of Omnipotence and Omniscience do also hold true...and I m thankful for it.
     
  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Always?

    The soldier that falls on a grenade that lands in the foxhole?

    The young unwed mother that decides not to get an abortion?

    The person that becomes an organ donor for another person?

    In your view, these people are making the pleasing choice?

    I could go on and on with more examples.
     
  15. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    In those scenarios, ITL, those people chose to die in the stead of their fellow soldier, preserve life, to save life by donating an organ such as a kidney, etc.
     
    #35 convicted1, Jul 3, 2015
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  16. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #36 Inspector Javert, Jul 3, 2015
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  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The thing 'most pleasing' may not be very desirable, but given the choice of one or the alternative, they choose the better of the two options.

    The soldier would not want to see his fellow soldiers die, so he falls upon the grenade for them.

    The unwed mother would rather birth the child than murder it by abortion.

    I do not want to die, but when the Lord calls me home, I want my organs to be used to save others, seeing I will have no further need of them.

    As already stated, people will gladly give up an organ, kidney, to save a family member's life.
     
  18. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    As you see I.T.L.....

    The idea that compatabilists have that everyone "chooses" according to their greatest desire at the time is a non-disprovable assumption.

    You can't prove otherwise, because they will simply fall back on the man who jumped on the grenade's desire to be lauded for it into perpetuity, or the single mother who bravely raises the child into her selfish desire not to deal with the phsychological ramifications of the decision to abort.....

    They are betting the ranch on a non-disprovable assumption.

    It's an implausible one, but they'll stick with it.

    Even if you unloaded every example in your database, they'll argue otherwise.

    It's a losing proposition to argue that way.

    Granted, their explanations are ad hoc implausible and counter-intuitive....
    But they don't care.

    They'll stick to their guns at the same time your man jumps on a grenade to save his friends.

    Because...you can't "prove" them wrong, despite how insane the proposition is..............
    and yes, the propostions that everyone "chooses" according only to their "greatest desire" is ad-hoc and stupid, but you'll never convince them otherwise, there's no point in arguing from that angle.
     
    #38 Inspector Javert, Jul 3, 2015
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  19. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    If someone puts a gun to your face and demands your wallet, you'll hand it over. Granted, Brothet, you don't desire to lose your money, but you'd desire to live moreso than having your face blown off and still losing your wallet...

    Your money or your kids? You don't want to lose either, but your money you'd give up in lieu of your kids...

    I know these are hypotheticals, but I hope you understand my points I made...

    Sent from my BNTV400 using Tapatalk
     
  20. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I did my clinicals in 2000. One of the hospitals was Thomas Memorial in South Charleston, WVa. It was named after a soldier whose last name was 'Thomas'. I know...durrrr. He died by falling upon a grenade thrown in amongst his troops. He died to save them.

    Sure, he probably never desired to die, but his desire for them not to die was more than his desire to live. Here's the link to the hospital. I could not find a link for his act, but I'll keep digging.

    https://www.thomaswv.org/about_promise.asp

    Sent from my BNTV400 using Tapatalk
     
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