Do we have a documented history?

[El_Guero]

John

Sounds like a lot of good sounding stuff written by well-intended folk to impress others that they MIGHT be baptist.

But, I bet that they would not have asked to hang on a cross in Nagasaki ...

 

[El_Guero]

Bro. James

What is "scriptural immersion", did you mean Baptism?

While you might be an immersionist, I am a Baptist.

 

[El_Guero]

ptl4evr

Kiffen's answer on page one was one of Kiffen's better answers ...

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
ptl4evr

Kiffen's answer on page one was one of Kiffen's better answers ...

Very true, El_Guero. Kiffin did a splendid job.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
What does a "real" Baptist believe?

Some terms: 1. sola scriptura, 2. sovereign grace, 3. election, 4. predestination, 5. scriptural immersion, 6. closed communion, 7. assembly sovereignty. 8. priesthood of believers

There are many more. Terms 2,3,4,5 narrow the field to a remnant the number of which is in the millions over the last two thousand years.

Selah,

Bro. James

I've held out from posting on this thread. But here goes.

There is a reason why the folks who died in Nagasaki were not those described in Brother James' definition. His second, third, and fourth terms kept mid to late seventeenth century Baptists (especially those in England) in their home countries. Remember, the dust ups William Carey, et al. went through in the late eighteenth century over "foreign" missions. So, regrettably most of those who died in Nagasaki died for the false gospel of the Church of Rome.

Now as to the question at hand Do we have a documented history?

If the answer sought is:

Yes, you can look it up in Dr. Smither's 10 volume History of the Baptists, complete with the corporate lineage of the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem.

Then the answer is no.

If the the following is an acceptable answer:

Before the sixteenth century, traces of New Testament Churches and their members can be found throughout Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, and Asia Minor. Some of these traces are clearer than others. Regrettably, the religious (the RCC) and secular powers did a good job at wiping out any primary sources. So, the traces can only be found in what are at best secondary documents.

Then the answer is a careful yes.

This much we do know. Our Lord stated, "On this rock, I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." Further, the church He built and is building was and is not the Western (RCC) or the Eastern Orthodox Church.

This may o

 

[Bro. James]

"Scriptural Immersion" makes a statement about the authority and mode of "baptism" which is a transliterated Greek word which means to immerse, dip or plunge. The authority to carry out this ordinance of the Assembly is vested in whom she chooses. The implication of this is: if one does not have scriptural authority, one has usurped authority which is no authority at all. The nitty gritty of this is: even though the LDS immerses candidates by the authority given to Joseph Smith Jr., he has usurped authority--which is no authority at all.

A similar analogy can be drawn to the followers of Alexander Campbell.

Those who practice such things as infant baptism have a similar problem: from whence cometh the authority to change the scriptural pattern?

RE: the allusion to Hardshellism on the parts of those who believe election and predestination are plain teaching of scripture. Such is not based on fact.

I personally am aware of a dear Sister in Christ who survived Hiroshima. She heard the gospel through Landmark MISSIONARY Baptists.

I know of at least 30 who meet regularly to carry out the Great Commission. We call our assembly: Sovereign Grace Landmark Missionary Baptists. We support missions in Romania, Thailand, New Guinea and right here--in "River City".

I recall reading about some "hardshell" missionaries who came to the "new world" in the 17th century. Was it the winter of 1620? These people, numbering about 35 in about 110, were called Separatists--by their enemies probably. Separatists had many Baptistic doctrines.

We have a wonderful history. Praise the Lord for preserving a remnant.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
What does a "real" Baptist believe?

Some terms: 1. sola scriptura, 2. sovereign grace, 3. election, 4. predestination, 5. scriptural immersion, 6. closed communion, 7. assembly sovereignty. 8. priesthood of believers

There are many more. Terms 2,3,4,5 narrow the field to a remnant the number of which is in the millions over the last two thousand years.

Selah,

Bro. James

Thank you for finally giving a clear statement of what you believe to be the Baptist distinctives. Having said that, I think it to be a very strange list. You have put Calvinist doctrine (your 2, 3, 4) ahead of a regenerate church membership and separation of church and state!! I find that very strange, especially in light of the topic of this thread. Now don't get all huffy, I'm not attacking Calvinist doctrine. My point is that you can't prove it has existed ever since John the Baptist.

Just for the sake of argument, let's go with your definition. I find absolutely no evidence in my church history books that Calvinist doctrine and closed communion have been part of the belief system of the various evangelical (or perhaps what you would call Baptistic) groups down through the ages.

Just as an exercise (perhaps in futility), can you prove to me that these doctrines existed in evangelical groups in say, the 6th through the 8th centuries?

 

[rsr]

Bro. James has defined Baptist is a way that I have not see before, which leads me to believe that we are talking about two completely different things and thus can never reach any kind of agreement.

Most Baptists I know (actually, all Baptists I know) define Baptists by a set of distinctives (or what used to be distinctives), a list that focuses on polity and does not include a specific soteriology.

Bro. James, I take it, does not consider the General Baptists Baptist at all and thus would have a completely different view of Baptist history than I do — even if we could agree on what are and are not trustworthy sources.

 

[Bro. James]

Proof that New Testament doctrines have been taught somewhere in the world since John the Baptist: Mt. 16:18; 28:20; Eph. 3:21; Jude 3.

That is assembly perpetuity, brethren; it can be found in every generation--someone has been teaching them to observe all things...

Jesus has been faithful to keep his promises.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[rsr]

Which, of course, has nothing to do with documented history.

 

[Bro. James]

For those who need secular corroboration see:
http://www.21tnt.com/chapelofthemartyrs.htm#scoot6.

See also papal bull and anathemas. An example:

"We excommunicate and anathematize, in the name of God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and by the authority of the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul, and by our own, all Wickliffites, Hussites, Lutherans, Calvinists, Huguenots, Anabaptists, and all other heretics(and all are heretics who do not believe like Roman Cahtolics) by whatsoever name they are called, and of whatsoever sect they be; and also, all schismatics, and those who withdraw themselves, or recede obstinately from the obedience of the Bishop of Rome; as also their adherents, reveivers, favorers, and generally, any defenders of them, together with all who, without the authority of the apostolic see, shall knowingly read, keep, or print any of their books which treat on religion, or for any cause whatever,publicly or privately, on any pretense or color, defend them." Bull of Gregory XII, 1411; Pius V, Urbane VIII, in 1627; and Pius IX, October, 1859; From: Romanism and the Republic, page 222.

Some more: "History of the Christian Church, Ch. 10, Heresy and It's Suppression. See also the extensive bibliography in above--Baptistic history is gleanable in many of these documents.

I have said it before: the history of Real Baptists is written in blood.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[rsr]

Again, what is your post supposed to prove?

Savaranola was burned, and he was no Baptist. Tyndale was burned, and he was no Baptist. Hus was burned, and he was no Baptist.

[ November 05, 2005, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[Bro. James]

The references on the post show that the "gates of hell" have not prevailed, the witnesses are still here. Satan could not kill them all. God has preserved a remnant through the fire, flood and sword. True Baptists have been in every generation since the first century A.D. The rest are called Protestant. True Baptists are not Protestant. This teaching will split many groups. Many modern baptist groups think Baptists are protestants. They are mistaken. Secular history verifies what scripture has promised--not that it needs to do so.

God is faithful--even when we are not.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
The references on the post show that the "gates of hell" have not prevailed, the witnesses are still here. Satan could not kill them all. God has preserved a remnant through the fire, flood and sword. True Baptists have been in every generation since the first century A.D. The rest are called Protestant. True Baptists are not Protestant. This teaching will split many groups. Many modern baptist groups think Baptists are protestants. They are mistaken. Secular history verifies what scripture has promised--not that it needs to do so.

God is faithful--even when we are not.

Selah,

Bro. James

James, you need to study that passage a little bit more. It does not say what you think it does. The passage teaches that when the church attacks the gates of Hell (gates are stationary), it will win. I see the gates of Hell all the time here on the mission field, and am not at all afraid, because I have this promise. What the passage does not say is that any particular local church will last forever.

Perhaps some of your other verses say what you want them to, though that too is debatable. At any rate, even if ALL your verses stated the principle that true NT churches would never cease to exist, that would not be the documentation which this thread calls for. It would simply be the stating of a principle. Principle...Documentation...Principle...documentation.... Got it?

 

[Bro. James]

We seem to be making a full circle with an ever changing set of ground rules.

Have you read the anathemas and papal bulls? Have you read the history of the inquisitions?

Much of this information predates Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and Knox.

The realization that True Baptists are not Protestants is a necessary change to the paradigm of "Baptist History", and a pivotal one to be sure.

Another document for assembly perpetuity: John 14:16-19, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you FOREVER; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also". This scripture is being fulfilled even in our generation. The Spirit, The Holy, the third person of the Godhead, immersed the first assembly on the day of pentecost. He has been indwelling every true assembly ever since even today.
Have you checked out: "The Spirit,The Holy?"

How is that for a documented history?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[rsr]

Well, it's not at all.

 

[Bro. James]

Are we headed for the shortest post contest or are about ready to cease the discussion?

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[rsr]

I'm game for a "shortest post" contest.

It appears you have nothing concrete to offer in this discussion. Therefore, it appears discussion has ceased.