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Featured Do We Have Free-Will?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Miss E, Jun 17, 2020.

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  1. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    It's a simple question with a VERY simple answer.

    What do you think about free will? Do we have it? Or does God essentially control our minds and force us to love or hate Him?

    I'm curious, we've been discussing this in another forum, but I wanted to see what the rest of the forum had to say on the subject.

    For me, I believe we do. Other-wise. How in the WORLD would we be able to TRULY LOVE GOD. If God MADE us love him, decided for us that we will be saved, how is that truly Love?

    I only have one sctipure and that is John 3:16:

    "For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have ever-lasting life."

    WHOEVER BELIEVES. That implies a conscious decision must be made. Does it not?

    Also, I do agree with the belief that God KNOWS who will make the choice to believe in Jesus and be saved and who will not. But just because He KNOWS THAT, doesn't mean He MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE TO FOLLOW HIM.

    Please enlighten me with your views. I need to know I'm not alone on this (to me) elementary scriptural truth.
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We have limited fee will. as now having sin natures, we can freely chose tgo do what we desire, its just that some of those things no longer will even now desire, such as getting saved!
     
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  3. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    @Yeshua1

    Be plain with me for a second here. Do you believe God takes away our free will to CHOOSE HIM and be saved?

    If that is what you call limited free will, then heck in a handbasket, we don't have free will PERIOD if it doesn't matter where we end up if it's being determined by God Himself!
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    See my reply to your OP on free Will!
     
  5. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Yeshua, honey, just give me a clear yes or no reply please.
     
  6. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Well-Known Member
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    Yes, we have free will.

    Hear is the classic example.

    God explained everything as clearly has he could to Cain to draw Cain to him and yet, Cain rejected God. God knew it was in Cain's heart to murder his brother and gave him four opportunities to resist the devil.

    God: "Why are you angry?" Just think if Cain had turned and answered, "I'm mad because you didn't accept my offering!"

    God: "Why has your face fallen?" What if Cain had said, "I'm jealous of Abel and I'm mad"

    I believe at that point, if Cain has confessed his anger and jealousy, God would have helped him. God was not toying with Cain - he wasn't dangling a carrot in front of him only to snatch it away.

    But Cain would not listen.

    God: "If you do right, won't you be accepted?" God explaining why his offering was not accepted and how to be obedient to God and accepted by God.

    God: "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. It's desire is contrary to [towards] you and you must master it." God gives the warning of what happens to people who are not careful of sin and who think they can do what they please with no regard for God.

    I do NOT believe that God was lying to Cain. If Cain has just spoken to God - even just to say, "I'm mad - I'm jealous!" God would have helped him.

    I do not believe that this is just an example for us NOT to follow. If that's all that this story is - then God was lying to Cain and had no desire to see Cain resist the devil and his temptations.

    Cain, of his own free will, sucked down that jealousy, hate, and bitterness like a ravenous wild animal. He chose to hate and plan murder than to listen to God.
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We no longer have full free will, but have it limited due to our sin natures!
     
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  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Humans have free will. They do not have the capacity, by their free will, to free themselves from the bondage of sin.
    Paul cries out in Romans 7 saying "who will free me from this body of death." The answer is: "Thanks be to Jesus."
    Only Christ Jesus has the capacity to free us from our sins. How then does Jesus make the choice?
    John 10 tells us that "all whom the Father has given" to Jesus are saved and secured. Ephesians 1 tells us that the choice was made from before the foundation of the world.
    Ephesians 2 tells us we are saved by God's grace. It also tells us that the faith we have to believe is given to us by God's choice so that no human can boast about themselves being the agent of choice.

    Miss, thinks her question is simple, but her understanding of free will refuses to admit that while humans, living in a prison of sin that has no escape, have free will, they have no capacity to choose freedom. God must pardon a human and free them. We humans are at the mercy of God's choice.
     
  9. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Misguided. Holy Spirit convicts us, I agree with that and we have the choice to accept His help or to reject it. God WANTS us to repent and turn to Him. For the scipture says:

    If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.2 Chronicles 7:14

    Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. Acts 3:19

    For the Lord your God is gracious and compassionate. He will not turn his face from you if you return to him.2 Chronicles 30:9b

    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

    Let me ask you this question. Repentance. Does that require free will? Do we have to CHOOSE to turn away from our sin and turn to Christ (to righteousness)

    Also, how can one 'turn' to God? Does God turn them Himself? No. Other-wise He is forcing us to not sin. WE CHOOSE TO SIN OR TO NOT SIN.

    What is so hard to understand? The scripture is plain as day!

    “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”Mark 1:15

    ‘Return to me,’ declares the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the Lord Almighty.
    Zechariah 1:3b

    How can we RETURN TO HIM if we don't make a CONSCIOUS EFFORT/CHOICE TO DO SO?

    Answer that. Use scriptural support if you can find any for your case that we do not have free will to choose or reject the Almighty.



     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I much prefer to have God in charge of saving me, then myself doing that!
     
  11. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    That wasn't a yes or not. But I still love you in Christ. :) Refer to my post above.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All depends on how one defines free will!
     
  13. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS.

    GOD SAVES US. WE DO NOT. WE DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY. BUT WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE TO BE SAVED OR NOT.

    Having God in his power save us from hell is correct.

    Having man save himself from hell (which implies man has the power that God has or can get into heaven by himself) is false. I am NOT saying that.

    I am SAYING, that Man has a CHOICE TO BE SAVED. Man does NOT save himself. God saves. Jesus saves alone, by faith in Christ alone- as Paul said.

    It's like if someone asked you if you wanted help out of the pit. You either say YES HELP! or NO, LEAVE! (same way Christians tell God they want Him or No they do not), YOU HAVE THE CHOICE TO ACCEPT OR REJECT THAT OFFER OF HELP BUT ONLY GOD ALMIGHTY JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD CAN (IN HIS MIGHTY POWER) PULL (AKA SAVE) YOU OUT OF THE PIT!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Re-Read my post carefully Yeshua. :)
     
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  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do we have the capability to decide to accept Jesus without the gracing by and of the Holy Spirit towards us?
     
  15. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    You mean when the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin? Well, No, the Holy Spirit helps us decide (it nudges us to God in a sense), but ultimately we have to make the conscious choice to accept the Holy Spirit or not.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So you would say that a sinner still has enough free will to make a decision to receive Jesus as lord in themselves, apart from the working of the Holy Spirit?
     
  17. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Now THAT'S a horse of a different color. If you are speaking in terms of the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin, and urging and nudging you to know Christ, then, THEN I will agree with you that we cannot do it on our own merit.

    EDIT: But don't get me wrong, I still consider that our free will, since we have to choose to let the Holy Spirit help us choose God. Fair enough?
     
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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Man is self willed. We call that free will. There is man's will and there is God's will, Matthew 7:21-23.
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Think about this. The Holy Spirit convicts those he...chooses to convict.

    Interesting. Do you see that this verse says "my people"? This means that the verse is for God's chosen people. The very verse you use, is in regard to Solomon's dedication of the temple and God's response to his chosen people and what he will do if they repent. This verse has nothing to do with the salvation of humanity.

    Again, Peter is talking to the people of Israel...the chosen people of God. He's calling them to repentance. Another time where you are neglecting context to try support your presupposition.

    Once again, a verse for God's chosen people.


    Who was Peter writing to? Let's look:
    2 Peter 1:1 I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.
    Peter tells us it is God's choice.

    Now, if you've read all of 2 Peter, you will know that Peter is addressing the judgment of God that will fall upon false prophets and false teachers. He is addressing the people that his letter is written to in chapter 1. Let's read the verses before and after verse 9.

    2 Peter 3:8-10 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

    Notice, he's writing to dear friends. And also notice that he's telling them about the day of the Lord. He's telling them (those to whom faith was given) that God doesn't want anyone of them to be destroyed before the day of the Lord, but he wants everyone of them to repent.
    The false apostles, false prophets and false teachers will all perish. God will destroy them.

    In Luke 12:49-53 we find these words of Jesus.
    “I have come to set the world on fire, and I wish it were already burning! I have a terrible baptism of suffering ahead of me, and I am under a heavy burden until it is accomplished. Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against—or two in favor and three against.

    ‘Father will be divided against son
    and son against father;
    mother against daughter
    and daughter against mother;
    and mother-in-law against daughter-in-law
    and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.’


    Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats. Some the Father has given him. The others, remain in the bondage of their own sin.

    Let's set this straight. Before a person can repent, that person must be made alive with Christ. Anything before that is just a human being remorseful and attempting to get out from under the weight of their own sin, by their own conniving and cunning. Why do I say this? Let's look at Ephesians 2:1-9

    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Before God makes us alive, we are dead. We cannot choose to turn away from our sin. We cannot choose God. We can only know the weight of sin and its consequences. We are not free. We have no capacity to free ourselves. As Ephesians tells us...God, by his grace, must make us alive with Christ. Once we are chosen by God and set free, we can repent and 1 John 1:9 becomes a reality. If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

    Yes, God makes us alive...Himself. We couldn't make ourselves alive. By making us alive, God is not forcing us to do anything. No, He is choosing to pardon us and set us free from the death that sin brought to us.
    Second, just because God makes us alive with Christ, it does not mean we are sinless. It means that our sins are pardoned and we are called to confess our sins and walk in step with the Spirit of God.

    Yet, because you try to use it to make it fit your presupposition, you take it entirely out of context. You actually muddy up scripture and try to force it to say what the context is not saying.


    Spoken by John the Baptist to the chosen nation of Israel. This is not a salvation verse, but a call to the chosen people to repent.

    Again, a verse given to the chosen people of God. This wasn't written to a foreign nation. How could God return to the Babylonians?

    You can't. That is why God's salvation is entirely dependent upon God and his gracious choice to save you. Without God choosing and doing the work, you will be dead in your trespasses and sins. You cannot make yourself alive. You cannot choose him...because you are dead in your sins.

    This is why it is...Amazing Grace. God was under no compulsion to pardon you. Your sins were an offense to him. Yet, even while you were yet a sinner...Christ died for you. He chose you...when you didn't deserve it.

    My entire response is full of scriptural support. The only question now is whether you will accept the truth of scripture or whether you will demand that you are your own savior by your own choice. If you demand that you are your own cause for your salvation by your own choice, then I openly call you to repentance. You are slapping the God of grace in the face and telling him that you think his choice of you is evil and an act of evil bondage making. You are telling him that you want to be free of his tyranny and thus you are wanting to run back to vomit of your own rebellious life against God.

    I have provided you with much scripture. Use your free will as a chosen child of God. Choose you this day whom you will serve.
     
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  20. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    GOOD GRIEF.

    I keep saying Man doesn't save himself. How many times must I scream this to the heavens?

    WE HAVE FREE WILL I AM CONVINCED OF THIS BECAUSE I CHOSE TO FOLLOW GOD, WHO CHOSE ME FIRST, SO I ACCEPTED HIM AS MY LORD AND SAVIOR AS EACH SAVED PERSON DID, DOES AND WILL DO.

    AND I SERVE JESUS CHRIST. Don't come in here and start throwing those sorts of comments my way sir. No sir. You don't decide if someone is saved or not, only God does. Lord forgive me if I ever have condemned anyone on here by mistake or on purpose. I rebuke you sir. Don't come in here with that nonsense.

    God saves us, I never, EVER EVER DENIED THAT. But we choose whether or not we will LET HIM do so.
     
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