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Do you believe in disciplining children

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Roguelet, Oct 17, 2005.

  1. fatbacker

    fatbacker New Member

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    Ed Edwards says "I looked at the book: (quoted on this site):
    WAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT CHILD TRAINING
    I quit reading it when it started talking about
    120 pound adults beating 22 pound toddlers.
    How can you "Just make sure when you spank your
    children to be totally honest with them"
    with a toddler (under 2)?"

    Good grief Ed Edwards get over yourself for awhile,lighten up, take a cold shower just take a joke. I am not talking about toddlers your over zealous Baptist, I am talking about something alot of parents have told their children, I know mine did to me.

    I have not been on this site very much but I am sure tired of your over analyzing everyone. Read between the lines Ed.

    Oh yeah, I was not quoting some book I was quoting my parents just before they whiped my rear end.
     
  2. Thankful

    Thankful <img src=/BettyE.gif>

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    Goodmorning, Fatbacker.

    Ed had to leave for work, but he asked me to post that "He was agreeing with you". [​IMG]
     
  3. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    Rogulet,

    I just got back to this. Regarding the ridiculous "obviously you don't have children" - - I have two children.

    My daughter is a missionary. She never gave me a bit of trouble in her life. She never did drugs, didn't drink, didn't engage in premarital sexual relationships, and more over, she was a leader in her school and community - actually serving in the city's "Youth Council" to help teach children that these things are wrong. She was an Honors Student, taking college classes in high school, and she graduated with highest honors. She was president of her orchestra, and by the time she was a senior in high school she was leading classes on how to lead people OUT of the Mormon Cult and TO Christ.

    My son is currently 13 years old. He is also not a bit of trouble, and is also a leader who tells others that the biblical way is the best way.

    I didn't have to beat either one of them. I did occasionally tap a tiny toddler hand once with a firm, "No, no."

    Furthermore - I did children's ministry for years, and had a reputation for managing to reach the unreachable children. One that stands out most in my mind is a young man that when I met him had such a reputation for being incorrigible that the children's choir director wanted to throw him out of the church choir rather than deal with him. She said, "We've tried everything with this kid from screaming to time outs to asking his father to beat him." I said, "Anyone tried love?" The room got silent, and I got the same attitude I get from you. So, I took him, and asked him to help me with out with my choir. I praised his accomplishments, bragged about him to his mother when he did things well, hugged him when I saw him. He ended up being one of our church's finest youth leaders, he graduated from his high school with honors and accolades for community service and today plays football for the U.S. Air Force team. He visits me when he is back in town.

    Another that stands out in my mind - was a P.K. (His Dad was our Associate Pastor.) Everyone in the church warned me not to go near this kid. I was told he was impossible. I was told he was horrible. I was told he was beyond hope. Well, on a retreat he got to acting out, and I cornered him. You could see the, "What are you going to do? Hit me?" defiance in his eyes. I handed him a guitar (I knew he could play) and said, "Teach me to play this thing. I never could get it." He said, "You aren't going to scream at me?" I said, "Would that work?" He got a smirk on his face and said, "No." I said, "Then why waste my time or yours? I would like to know why you do all this?" He said, "Because it doesn't matter. If I did everything exactly the way these people claim they want me to do it, they'd still only tell my Dad what I do wrong. So why even try?"

    I figured it was a fair question.

    So - during that retreat, I made a special effort to speak up and say, "I want to say thank you to Johnathan for helping me learn some guitar chords." And at church on Sunday, I caught his Dad afterwards and said, "I wanted to tell you something about the retreat." Steve and Rhonda instantly stiffened, bracing for the worst. I said, "We had a couple of girls who violated the rules, went off the trails, and got themselves trapped. They were afraid to come down, and us old adults weren't sure we could make it up to get them down. Jonathan went up, marked the steps up and down, and one by one by one walked each of the girls to the base. It must have meant four or five trips." Rhonda actually cried. She said, "This is the first time in Jonathan's life someone from the church has said something GOOD about him."

    Well, that got around, and other people started feeling guilty, and they started letting Steve and Rhonda know what Johnathan did RIGHT.

    When he graduated, he hunted me down, hugged me and said, "Wherever I go in life, I'll know that you were the first person besides Mom and Dad that believed in me, and loved me for who I am, not just because I am Dad's son."

    Kids NEED love.
    The bible TELLS us this.

    Twice the New Testament tells fathers not to provoke their children to wrath.

    Biblical Discipline is LOVING discipline. It is NOT beating a child until he cries so you get the right response. It is NOT a "power game" it is a teaching experience.

    You can beat someone into submission, but when you stop beating them, they stop submitting.

    Or you can guide them with loving discipline, and when you stop it is because they no longer NEED it.
     
  4. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Page 2 of this discussion, Roguelet:


    I'm thrilled that spanking worked for you, but less than happy that you insist that I'M misinterpting God's Word because the practicality of spanking didn't work for my son in most cases.

    There were times when it was effective, but those didn't come along until he 6 or 7. On top of that, Son's pain tolorance is high, so the force used to make him "cry genuinely" is very close to the force necessary to leave bruises and I refuse to do that and don't believe God requires it of me! Spanking in our house is considered humiliation, not pain, because the embarrassment of being spanked is sooooo much worse than the pain.

    Now I have 3 kids, how they will turn out in the end doesn't depend entirely on me. They will all have their own decisions to make. It is up to me to be certain that they have every tool available to help them make the correct decisions. There is still the chance that they will decide that Mom, Dad and God don't know what we are talking about. But we can't force them to do anything in a spiritual sense.

    However in the spiritual side of things, both my 13 year old and my 10 year old(the son) were saved at the age of 7. The Holy Spirit has moved in them in ways that I couldn't have even imagined and still is.

    An example from each: The 13 year old is a girl in middle school. At this age most of the other girls are, shall we say, less than modest. Even girls we go to church with. And the boys are already wanting to go places..... My daughter refuses to let her little fella(not a boyfriend, in her opinion) even hold her hand. Her decision, not mine.

    Son, the same one who wouldn't stay in time out, stole things and could be the monster child in terms of behavior, was very proud of himself yesterday that he was in a totally different location in the school when one of his classmates decided it would be cute to pull down the pants of a little girl on the playground. Not only that but when giving me his opinion of the situation, he wouldn't allow his little sister to be in the room because he didn't think she needed to hear the news that there were boys who didn't respect the girls enough to leave their clothes alone. (his opinion also was that the school's punishment for this activity was fast enough but maybe not strong enough)

    Now the important thing to get from this is not that God's word says to whip your kids into submission. What is says is to train up a child in the way it should go.....

    (btw, if I did spank my kids and thought more force was needed that a pat on the hieny with my hand, I did use a switch. No force or pain required as my girls can't stand the feel of the limb(wild privets were the best) on their skin. Plus, if I had to leave what I was doing to go pick the switch, that meant I was really upset and was cooling myself off before metting out punishment. The very act of walking out the door was enough to put an end to whatever they were/weren't doing. Even Son got this idea.)
     
  5. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Petrel
    Why do I have to lay off just because no one ( except gb93433 ) can answer my legitmate question ?
    I never said spanking was for EVERY situation just for Direct Willful Disobedience. If you don't have a better why don't get mad at me :rolleyes:
     
  6. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Texas I have already said many times that children can turn just fine inspite of our mistakes believe me we make enough ourselves. All I am saying is MOST kids today who are running around WILD the ones you see in the store, at church, at school, in your neighborhood who a very disobedient and do not follow orders of any kind NEED A SPANKING more than they are getting. The more consistant those spanking the better off they are.

    If anyone actually read the book they would see that if a parent applies many aspects of disciplines which includes SPANKINGfor willful disobedience they would not struggle with misbehaving children all the time, and would have more balanced ajusted children now and when older.

    Here is an example lets take marriage. We all know many couples who have been married for years and seem happy or at least they are still together. But they do not talk to each other anymore, they do not have intimacy, they do not do things together and so on. Now to outsiders they are considered a married happy couple, just for the fact that they are still together.

    But Gods wants a better relationship between the two, communication, intimacy, sharing things incommon mutual respect etc. [​IMG]
    There are many ingrediants for a " Happy " marriage, not just one ( staying together ) that exits.

    It is the same with our kids. There are many ingrediants for raising a happy well ajusted child, who serves God and others. One of those ingrediants involves SPANKING at least for very willful defiant children and ususally at an early age to establish parental authority and first time obedience and respect. I don't know about you I don't want to just have kids that "JUST GOT RAISED" I want to kids who grow up to respect God and others and us.

    This thread was written to help those who struggle with disobedient children who will not obey their authority. For those of you who raised happy well ajusted kids who respect God and others without spanking God bless you and more power to you.

    But that ISN'T the norm and you probably had very easy going kids that if you just gave them a stern look obeyed. Most kids today in our society are VERY self centered and defiant, and do not respect ANYONE !
     
  7. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    menageriekeeper you made alot of good points that I agree with. But again it goes back to FIRST time obedience. We personally want our kids to obey the first time not when we get tired , mad or frustrated.

    We had a kid who wouldn't stay in his room or bed so he had to be spanked in order to get the message not to leave his room. We never did time out either didn't have to just spanked that worked mush faster and easier especially when you or out running errands or at church, which didn't happen often at all because they knew what would happen ! I don't recall spanking for calling each other names, from what I remember they were very good about not doing that. But i tell you what if they talk back to us that deserved a spanking, not to thrilled about kids disrespecting authority !

    The great thing about following through with first time obedience and using the proper tool is you are less likely to get mad and it works much faster, one because you are not ignoring the problem and two because you a snipping it in the bud right away so you don't have time to get mad and also you don't have to think of creative solutions, since the easy way is a quick swat. We got more creative as they got older and offenses were much less often.

    When it comes to establishing "Parental Authority" you have to do something firmly and consistantly so why not spanking for willful disrespect and willful disobedience ? I really don't see what the problem is ?

    Done right it really isn't that big of a deal, many kids can attest to that. I remember my son did something wrong one day, and a neighbor was there and he said to the neighbor "wait a minute i have to go get my spanking i will be right back". my kids understood the importance of it and it was done in love and understanding. So it was no big deal it was just the way it was and i had better kids for it.
     
  8. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    Roguelet,

    Actually, most of the children I see in stores that are running around wild have parents who spank. Right there, in public. They (the parents) scream and scream, disrupting the entire store, then yank the child up, slap them hard on the butt, make a threat that there will be more at home. Cause the child to scream in pain and/or terror, thus making the rest of us even MORE miserable, and teaching the child that violence is fine.

    I totally disagree with your comment that "Most kids today in our society are VERY self centered and defiant, and do not respect ANYONE!"

    I work at a major university, I am active in church work, I am active in the community, and I am active at the local schools. For every 1 brat I meet, I meet 100 good kids. The brats just get more attention.

    If, however, children ARE defiant and self centered, it is NOT because parents are not spanking. It is because parents are being poor parents all the way around, and spanking won't change that.
     
  9. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Boy you do not get itTexas !!!

    PROPER DISCIPLINE requires not being ANGRY, not spanking with your HAND, not doing it in PUBLIC therefore humilitating the child, using the right TOOL. Showing the child RESPECT etc. etc. etc.

    Please read the book so you will have a better understanding of PROPER child rearing. You keep saying things I said were wrong like i said they were right ?

    Personally I have never seen a perent do that in the store must be where we live or something. I think you made that up. If they did that they are wrong for all the reasons above !

    How many kids do you have Texassky I forgot ?
     
  10. Petrel

    Petrel New Member

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    You do like to project, don't you?

    As for your "legitimate question," it has already been answered.

    Now for some reminescing to my childhood days--I didn't like spankings, but I even more didn't like

    1. having my books temporarily confiscated or my library privileges revoked
    2. being grounded from the computer
    3. not being allowed to go to horseback riding lessons

    Spanking is not always the most effective punishment.
     
  11. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    How many kids do you have petrel I forgot ?

    I didn't see you answer my question ? Here give it a try if you think you know so much about this subject ? If you can't find a topic you do know something about and leave me alone.

    what would YOU do if a child, Talks back.... Will not sit in time out no matter what.......will not do what he is told or does what he is told not to do.....will not stay in his bed when told...... will not stop touching things no matter how much you redirect him...... will not follow orders etc. etc. etc. ?????
     
  12. Petrel

    Petrel New Member

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    As I recall, I told you you had yet to demonstrate how that's any of your business. Additionally, I don't typically post personal information where anyone in the world can see it.

    Besides, we've already seen that you don't really care how many kids I have, I'll still be wrong simply because I disagree with you. And you said yourself that we can't really trust anything any of us say to be true, so why does it matter to you anyways?

    If you like, I can always say I have five. :D


    I will try this again. I am not opposed to spanking on occasion. I might spank your hypothetical child or I might not.

    I've worked with a lot of hyperactive disobedient kids like that who just had zero self-discipline simply because no one really cared about them at home. With those kids spanking was certainly out of the question because I was not their guardian and didn't have the authority to physically punish them. Additionally, I don't think it would really have addressed the problem--just suppressed the symptoms. Instead I used a lot of patience and consistency and tried to pay attention to the good things they did and not reward the bad things with attention (because that was what they really wanted). Every one of those kids showed great improvement over time.
     
  13. fatbacker

    fatbacker New Member

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    Hey I have a question!! They say you are not supposed to spank your kids in anger, but how many of you spank your children when your in a good mood? I think if I was going to spank them they had to have done something to tick me off.

    :confused:
     
  14. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Petrel.....And I am the one with an attitude pleeeze !

    Maybe you haven't noticed but I have agreed with lots of people so far on this subject and several have agreed with me? But then again these people actually say things that make biblical and common sense unlike you.

    It does matter if you have any kids, if you have no kids what authority do you base your experence on. You obviously do not agree with Gods word, Pastors, well known Christian Authors and those who do have kids that have seen what I have said WORK. I would never discipline anyone elses kids or even suggest that they needed to, unless I was asked. You did the right thing.

    So by what authority do you base your " OPINION " on ???
     
  15. Petrel

    Petrel New Member

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    We've been going in circles so long I've become disoriented--I've said I'm not opposed to spanking, so why is it again that you're angry at me?

    I devoted a good part of my life to childhood, so I think I'm qualified to say what discipline did and did not work. :D Spanking--not so great. Revocation of privileges--pretty good!
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Looking back I think the original pretext of this thread might be misleading. The OP topis reads "Do you believe in disciplining children".

    The implication is that if you don't spank your children, you must not be disciplining them. How much selfrighteous of an attitude can there be?

    Everyone here believes in discipline. People here differe on their views on spanking, and the extent on its role.

    Spanking is inhierently violent. Hence, it should be done only in the most extreme cases and as a last resort. If it's done frequently, it not only loses effectiveness, but ceases to be discipline and starts to be abuse.

    Why there is so much hesitation to speak out against this baffles me. I suspect it is because so many of us know persons in our own households who regularly spank or were regularly spanked to the point of abuse, and we don't want to recognize it for what it is, lest we end up associating the spanker with a form of abuse.
     
  17. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    fatbacker.... I do believe this has already been adressed many times. But maybe this will be more clear.

    If a child disrepects a parent, like talking back, not obeying when asked, you know WILLFUL DISOBEDIENCE this is usually how it should go.

    First the rules have been established and understood.

    No talking back...no touching things that are not yours, unless you ask....no tantrums....no whatever, basically whenever we say NO and they don't obey.

    If they know the rule then break it, you explain to them calmly, "you disobeyed you now need a spanking". You calmly take them somewhere private just you and them and let them know how many swats they will be getting I usually never do more than three. I ask them to pull their pants down leave underwear on. I use a switch if real young or a dowl stick like at home depot or any hardware store and a very thin riding horse crop for teenagers if needed, usually not often ( works great on them ). Then I talk to them about what is expected in the future ( as if they don't already know ) let them know I love them and want whats best for them and so does God etc. And when they are ready they need to apoligize and ask for forgiveness for disobeying God and us as authority figures.

    When done in this fashion there should be NO ANGER from you. it is all done matter of fact and immediately, everyone knows where they stand and what is expected and what their roles are in the family. Its really all very simple. Have we been perfect at this all the time NO. have we made mistakes YES, have we tried justifying another way instead of spanking YES, have we disciplined in anger at time ( very rare ) YES.

    Anger is a result of being frustrated and feeling your rights have been trampled on and high expectations that you feel are not being met. The wrong kind of anger is if you feel your child is BOTHERING you. never get mad at a child who NEEDS your attention.

    So if you are consistant the first time something happens, anger does not build up. you have no expectaions since you already know what to do. It isn't about your rights it is about doing what pleases God and the goal in raising a child fit for service and society. It isn't about YOU it is about God and them.
     
  18. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Thanks John your are right lets look back at the original post. By the way John proper spanking isn't abuse, hitting out of anger on the wrong parts of the body with the wrong instrument IS ABUSE. Give me a break !

    The bible says " if you spare the ROD you spoil the child "

    I am amazed at a few facts

    1)How many Christians think capital punishment is wrong. ( Not for children just in general )

    2)How many Christians do NOT discipline their children.

    3)How many have have fallen for the lie of the Government and liberal media.

    4)How many think Dr. Phill and the Nanny show is the answer to all our problems with kids today.

    Seems to me we have become a wishy washy society worried about what others ( including our children ) think than what God thinks.

    My biggest questions was for how Parents are taught by the LIBERAL MEDIA on how we should raise kids. When GODS WORD is clear about how !

    I thought i was refering to nonchristians when writing this but I see there are a lot of christians who also believe in a humanistic liberal way of raising kids. Satan is a liar and he has fooled even christians in this area as well as so many other areas.

    Parents and kids on the Dr, Phil show and the Nanny and the like have kids that are SO SELF CENTERED and down right out of control dangerous. That whatever they are doing isn't working, we never do see the results on the advice of Dr. Phil or the Nanny to see if anything they said or done worked. After reading " What The Bible Says About Child Training " Dobsons book, and a few others, listening to Godly Pastors who raised Godly kids, well known Christian authors who all are saying basically the same thing about what Gods word has to say about it. And seeing the results in our kids lives and others who apply many principles in the book which include spanking for the reasons i have mentioned on a consistant bases.

    So if you all want to believe Dr. Phil and the Nanny and Dr. Spock go ahead, ain't my kid although i hate being around those kind of kids.
    I and others would rather take the advice of those who speak from authority on the subject. Not people with no children or those who do not disagree with God.
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Not exactly, but close:

    "He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly." - Proverbs 13:24

    Don't forget that this is a proverb, that is, a poetic saying. It's not a literal instriction. It must be taken in its poetic context. This verse is not saying that we must use a rod to discipline our kids. The rod here is an analogous term. This verse tells us that the opposite of sparing the rod is disciplining our children promptly. Discipline means to correct and teach. This verse is telling us that parents should correct inappropriate behavior and teach appropriate behavior. To imply that this verse is advocating "whoppin'" is simply a twist of scripture.

    "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him." - Proverbs 22:15

    and

    "The rod and rebuke give wisdom: But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother."

    The "rod" here is referring to correction and teaching. Correction and teaching rebuke and give wisdom. Wisdom is gained through teaching, which is an essential part of discipline. Again, to imply that this verse is advocating "whoppin'" is simply a twist of scripture.

    In fact, if you we at Psalm 23, we see that "Your rod and Your staff they comfort me." You'll see here that the rod is clearly a rod of protection and comfort, an analogy againg of the shepherd's rod (I don't know too many shepherds who beat their sheep).

    Capital punishment is no longer required. It was implimented as part of the OT civil law for the Israelites. That law is no longer in effect.

    I believe it is still permissible, but not required. In fact, scripture does not instruct man on the operation of jurisprudence. It appears to leave that up to us.

    If you're equating "spanking" with "discipline" your statement is incorrect. However, if you're referring to discipline in general, I agree with your statement.

    This is true regardless of the spanking issue. I know parents who spank, but generally do not discipline. I know parents who don't spank, but discipine well. I know parents who spank and discippine well. I know parents who don't spank and don't discipline.

    I belive spanking is permitted, but not required scripturally. Discipline is required scripturally.

    That's a rather generic statement. One could easily lump in anyone who disagrees with you into that category without having to prove it. That's one of the reasons I try to stay away from such nebulous statements.

    I don't watc the Nanny show, but I have no problem with Dr Phil. He gives good, sound, and, imo, Godly advice.

    Again, a rather nebulous comment. It seems to imply that if a parents doesn't spank their kids, they're wishy-washy. That's a pretty self-rightous comment.

    I don't know a single parent who was so taught. It sounds like just another statment that can be used to fingerpoint at parents based solely on not liking the way the discipline. Again, the cammont is self-righteous in nature.

    Yes, God's words are clear. God's words to not require spanking. They appear to permit it, but require it. It seems that the "God requires spanking" crows that is not clear on what God's word really says.

    There's no shortage of people applying the "liberal" label for no scriptural reason. The old "if you don't agree with me, you're a liberal". This topic shows no shortage of that.

    Satan is a liar and has fooled Christians into thinking that spanking should be mandatory and often.

    It doesn't even appear to me that you have watched the Dr Phil show, other than brief channelsurfing. NO disrespect intended, but I question your ability to judge Dr Phil objectively and with righteousness.

    Hmmm, I thought all you needed was to read God's word. It seems you're relying on others (and at the same time, rebuking those who rely on others based on nothing but your preformed opinion on the topic). Again, I mean no disrespect, but it seems like a bit of a doublestandard.

    Now, as far as other parents, I detect a bit if unrighteous judgement there. I know plenty of Godly parents who have never spanked, aren't liberal, and have well-disciplined children.

    I speak with authority ono the subject. I've dilligently studied scripture. I also have three children. They know that I will not hesitate to spank if necessary. I haven't done so in five years that I can remember, and my youngest is nine.
    Sounds like you discount them simply if they don't agree with what you think God is saying.

    That's dangerous, my friend. We must look at scripture as a whole, through objective eyes, receptive mind, and open heart. Verse-worship typically ends up in misapplication, and is difficult to refute once it is applied.
     
  20. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Here is the difference between our parenting styles. You want your children to obey because you tell them to do something and do it the first time.

    It is much less important to me that my kids listen to me the first time, than it is that they are listening for the right reasons. The end of this all is that when they are grown they won't make decisions based just on what I said, but they'll understand the Foundation for making decisions is God's Word.

    I want my children not just to obey, but to know WHY they should obey. The why is not "because I said so". I want them to say when I'm not around, "this isn't a good idea because...", rather than, "I've done something wrong so now I have to be punished". They know that some decisions will bear consequences. I don't have to be me that decides those consequences. Natural consequences work just fine.

    Son decided it was a good idea to play football just before going to school/church/_____ and got grass stains on his knees. Oh well, he gets to explain why he is dirty to his friends(and they will ask). It doesn't happen a second time, because he has learn not just I'd better listen to Mom because I'll get a spanking if I don't, but that I'd better listen to Mom because she knows what she's talking about!(btw, I do not allow myself to become embarrassed about things like dirty knees. If someone comments, I tell them the truth, this is his consequence for making the poor decision. this of course just furthers the embarassment for Son.)

    My parents prefered your style of parenting(magnified about twenty fold). They demanded instant obedience and brooked no questioning. If we did, we got whipped(what they did is not what either of us would describe as spanking) Guess what? I grew up having to teach myself why. I had no idea where they got their ideas, even though they generally claimed it was the Bible. Good thing I learned to read for myself or I'd have never had an idea of my own. Those weren't allowed either.

    No way was I following thier example. What their interpetation of discipline got them was disowned by one child and nearly so by the other(me). For years there was no relationship between me and them, it just wasn't possible because they couldn't give up their control(even after I was married). We still don't have a close relationship, I get to close and the control issues start again.(you'd think by the time I turned 40 I'd be old enough to have some sense)

    Not spanking is not a sin.
     
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