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Do you believe in disciplining children

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Roguelet, Oct 17, 2005.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I have several friends who are lawyers. So I do know a litle bit about what gos on in the justice system in America.

    You should be an executioner.

    If you would be willing to take the place of one person who has already been wrongfully executed then I would be willing to support the death penalty.

    Is that a deal?
     
  2. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Jesus never had kids and was never married. Does he not count as an authority?

    Where have you been! Have you read your Bible lately? Take a look at all the troublemakers in scripture. They were the religious folks and in churches too.

    "Not people with no children or those who do not disagree with God." At times I would hear the same comment from parents who had children who were troublemakers. What an excuse! There were plenty of times when parents did notice what I did with their chidlren and would ask me about what I did. I have been able to take some of those troublemakers and help them to turn their life around. What I have found is that the apple usually does not fall far from the tree. Give me those troublkemakers because I know I can have an affect in their life. If I remember right there is a church built with troubled adults. Isn't it called Brooklyn Tabernacle. Some of the church folks were on Nightline and other various shows tellling about the good news of the gospel showing what God can do when we walk by faith among people who are not cleaned up by Jesus's blood.

    Some people who work with children cannot have kids. It's too bad you think so poorly of them and consider their advice worthless. Fortunately there are others who try to learn from those people though. I have been on both sides of the fence and consider it much easier to have your children than have a classroom of thirty high school students.

    I did not have a daughter for some time but I had more experience than most parents get in a lifetime by the time she was born. I only had about 140 high school students each day in class to learn form and observe. Because of that I am able to see a little further down the road than most parents. It doesn't take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist to figure out why the good ones are so good and the why the bad ones are so bad.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother gb93433 - preach RIGHT ON! [​IMG]
     
  4. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    John here is a more accurate study on the subject. You left out way to many verses that talk about the true meaning of the word ROD. The Hebrew word talking in these passages means exactly what I and Pastor all around say it means. A stick or switch or staff !

    “He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly” (Proverbs 13:24). This motif is repeated throughout Proverbs. For example, Solomon asserted “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him” (22:15).

    Lest someone get the idea that Solomon used the term “rod” figuratively, without intending to leave the impression that parents should actually strike their children with a rod, he clarified the target: “Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell” (23:13-14). A proper balance is obviously needed between verbal reproof/encouragement on the one hand, and the application of corporal punishment on the other, as seen in the following words: “The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. Correct your son, and he will give you rest; yes, he will give delight to your soul” (29:15,17, emp. added). The immense importance of the interplay between positive instruction, encouragement, and nurturing, in conjunction with appropriate physical punishment, cannot be overestimated nor successfully discounted.

    MEANING OF “ROD”

    But what did Solomon mean by “rod”? The Old Testament uses primarily three Hebrew words to refer to a wooden stick:

    Maqqel refers to a tree branch that has been transformed into a riding crop (Numbers 22:27), a shepherd’s staff (1 Samuel 17:40—which Goliath called a “stave” or “stick”—vs. 43), or a weapon of war (Ezekiel 39:9—“javelin” in the KJV). It is also used as a symbol of dominion (e.g., Jeremiah 48:17—where it occurs in synonymous parallelism with matteh), and in its natural state as a branch of a poplar, chestnut, or almond tree (Genesis 30:37; Jeremiah 1:11) [see Harris, et al., 1980, 1:524; Botterweck, et al., 1997, 8:548-550].

    Matteh occurs 252 times and is used to refer to a branch, stick, stem, rod, shaft, staff, and most often a tribe (some 180 times). It can refer to a stick used to beat out cumin/grain (Isaiah 28:27), a soldier’s spear (1 Samuel 14:27), as well as the shaft of an arrow (Habakkuk 3:9,14) [Botterweck, et al., 8:241; Gesenius, 1847, pp. 466-467].

    Shevet, the word used in Proverbs, refers to a staff, stick, rod,epter, and tribe. Gesenius defined it as “a staff, stick, rod” and then showed how it is translated differently in accordance with the use to which it was put, whether for beating, striking, chastening (Isaiah 10:5,15), a shepherd’s crook (Leviticus 27:32; Psalm 34:4), a king’s scepter (Genesis 49:10; Amos 1:5,8), a tribe (Judges 20:2), a measuring rod, or a spear (2 Samuel 18:14) [p. 801; cf. Harris, et al., 2:897].

    Matteh and shevet are used together in Ezekiel 19:10-14 to refer to fresh tree branches. They are used in synonymous parallelism in Isaiah 28:27 as a stick used to beat out cumin/grain: “But the black cumin is beaten out with a stick (matteh), and the cumin with a rod (shevet).” They are unquestionably synonyms. If any distinction can be made between them, it is that matteh is not used to refer to a scepter (see Harris, et al., 2:897; although Gesenius, pp. 466-467). However, both are used to refer to a stick or rod. In fact, shevet is specifically referred to as a rod used for beating a human being: if a man beats his servant or his maidservant with a rod…”exodus 21:20). As Isaacs noted: “The Heb[rew] bhet is the ordinary word for rod or club” (1959, 4:2702; cf. McClintock and Strong, 1880, 9:57-58,401).

    In addition to the verses in Proverbs that refer specifically to spanking a child, several additional verses verify that literal striking of the body with a wooden stick is envisioned. For example, "wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding, but a rod is for the back ( Buttocks ) of him who is devoid of understanding” (Proverbs 10:13). "A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the fool’s back ( Buttocks )” (Proverbs 26:3).
    Obviously, the “rod” is as literal as the “whip” and “bridle.” The Psalmist declared: “Then I will visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes” (Psalm 89:32).
    Though speaking figuratively, the Psalmist aligned “rod” with “stripes.” In passages where the term “rod” is used figuratively, the figurative use presupposes the literal meaning (e.g., Job 9:34; 21:9; Isaiah 10:24; 11:4; 14:29; 30:31; Lamentations 3:1; Micah 5:1).

    CONCLUSIONS

    In light of the linguistic data, the following conclusions are warranted:

    First, the three terms are essentially synonyms with no real distinction to be discerned between them. They are as generic, ambiguous, and flexible as their English counterparts. As Orr stated: “Little distinction can be drawn between the Heb[rew] words used for ‘rod’ and ‘staff ’ ” (1959, 4:2596; also Funderburk, 1976, 5:132).
    The commonality that exists between them is the fact that they all refer to a stick/limb, i.e., a branch from a tree. In antiquity, scepters, spears, arrows, rods, staffs/staves were all made out of wood, i.e., tree branches (cf. Ezekiel 19:11). Hence, the distinction between them was one of purpose/function—not source. It follows that size, i.e., thickness and length, would likewise have varied. The Hebrew words themselves possess no inherent indication regarding size.


    Second, the principle of spanking is clearly taught in Proverbs. This is beyond dispute. Since God would not approve of child abuse (cf. Colossians 3:21), it follows that whatever instrument is used for spanking, whether switch, yardstick, small whip, stick etc., should get the job done without inflicting inappropriate or unnecessary damage to the child’s body. The “switch” has much to commend it, and certainly coincides with the biblical texts on the subject. But good sense and personal judgment must be exercised in determining its size.

    In his comments on the Hebrew word for “rod,” Hebrew scholar and Professor of Old Testament at Regents College, Bruce Waltke noted: “The rod was also used as an instrument for either remedial or penal punishment. …In Prov[erbs] it is the symbol of discipline, and failure to use the preventive discipline of verbal rebuke and the corrective discipline of physical punishment will end in the child’s death” (Harris, et al., 1980, 2:897, emp. added). The author of the apocryphal book, Ecclesiasticus, observed: “He who loves his son will whip him often, in order that he may rejoice at the way he turns out” (May and Metzger, 1965, p. 166).

    Writing over one hundred years ago, professor W.F. Adeney offered a surprisingly current observation that has much to commend it:

    The primitive rigour of the Book of Proverbs is repudiated by modern manners. Not only in domestic training, but even in criminal law, people reject the old harsh methods, and endeavor to substitute milder means of correction. No doubt there was much that was more than rough, even brutal, in the discipline of our forefathers. The relation between father and child was too often lacking in sympathy through the undue exercise of parental authority, and society generally was hardened rather than purged by pitiless forms of punishment. But now the question is whether we are not erring towards the opposite extreme in showing more tenderness to the criminal than to his victim, and failing to let our children feel the need of some painful discipline. We idolize comfort, and we are in danger of thinking pain to be worse than sin. It may be well, therefore, to consider some of the disadvantages of neglecting the old-fashioned methods of chastisement (1950, 9:258-259).
     
  5. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    menageriekeeper I believe in one of my 30 post ( man I feel like I need to write a book so you all will get it in order and not forget so quickly if you actually are reading the post ) I said something to the fact that we go through the bible and and that there are SO many other aspects to training like the ones you and others have mentioned. just because you all cannot accept God word on spanking don't argue with me argue with God !

    First time Obedience is VERY important you have a child who is in a dangerous situation and he doesn't SEE the danger but you do and you CALL him. If he is not taught first time Obedience what makes you think he will answer and obey you ?

    If you do not teach first time obedience what makes you think he will obey his teachers and other examples of authority ? A child needs to obey YOU ! You are the authoroity God has given him/her for their life NO ONE ELSE.

    If you do not teach first time obedience then you will get angry and lash out yelling or even hitting since YOU have taught them that your word means NOTHING so they can wait till you say it for the second, third, fourth time or how ever long it takes for you to get mad and threaten them, if you do not demand first time obedience then you will get mad.

    I am very comfortable knowing how many understand this but yet do not have the guts to say something and stand for Gods word. I have taken a survey and more believe this in their heart even if the do not always practice it. For those against it I am finding they don't even have children.

    Same goes for the death penalty. many believe in it but do not say anything.
     
  6. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    gb93433
    Jesus is God he knows everything including mans heart. You are not Jesus so don't put yourself in the same position as him. He wrote the bible so I am sure he knows what he said about child rearing and the ROD. Your analogy was bad sorry.

    I do not care how many kids you have worked with you are not a scholar of Gods word, you are not a Pastor, you are not an authority of any kind on Biblical child rearing, you have not proven to be able to raise kids from infancy to adulthood with YOUR methods which are very vague.

    Oh yeah you still have not answered what YOU would do if a child, Talks back.... Will not sit in time out no matter what.......will not do what he is told or does what he is told not to do.....will not stay in his bed when told...... will not stop touching things no matter how much you redirect him...... will not follow orders etc. etc. etc. ?????
     
  7. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Hey Mods I think we have " Beaten " this subject to death ! Can we please close the thread now.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Hey Mods I think we have " Beaten " this subject to death ! Can we please close the thread now.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    As per the OP's request---this thread is closed!

    Bro. David, Moderator
     
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