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Do you believe in the rapture?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Askjo, Dec 9, 2005.

  1. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    I am not dogmatic about it, but the pre-trib Rapture fits Scripture the best.

    It fits the type of the Jewish wedding. And the verses on the Rapture are different than the verses on His second coming.

    And DeafPostTrib, the holy angels are also referred to as saints in the OT.
     
  2. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Agreed Helen. I personally have no opinion on the timing, existence or non-existence of a rapture and consider these types of disagreements to be some of the silliest distractions in Christianity. It is good to be aware of the relevant verses and some of the more popular interpretations. But I consider being right or wrong about those interpretations to be very inconsequential.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I am pre-trib, pre-mill.

    Man, I don't even eat post toasties.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    It is my job to make toast posties [​IMG]
    I am a pretribulation rapture believer
    and a pre-millinnial Second Coming of Jesus believer.

    The following uses:
    rapture - like a resurrection but for the living
    resurrection - being raised from the dead & given
    a new body

    --------------------------------------------------
    I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
    in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the 'prince that shall come', not the Messiah Prince.
    Note that the capital 'H' in the second 'He'
    is to start a line of poetry - it also refers to
    the 'prince that shall come', not the Messiah Prince.
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
    are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation (AOD), dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

    But I would not have you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
    that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
    no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of
    the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
    unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
    heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain
    shall be caught up together with them
    in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
    and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
    ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so cometh as
    a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say,
    Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
    cometh upon them, as travail upon
    a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
    that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light,
    and the children of the day: we are
    not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
    and they that be drunken are drunken
    in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day,
    be sober, putting on the breastplate
    of faith and love; and for an helmet,
    the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether
    we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;

    I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
     
  5. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Post-tribism teaches that these churches will go thru the 7 yr trib, but the 144,000 evangelists cannot be the church because they are the jews only.
     
  6. tfisher1

    tfisher1 New Member

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    Sure would like to see Macarthur and Piper hash this one out in a debate forum.(Mac-Pre, Piper-Post!)

    Personally, Ive read about everything there is to read on both sides and have come to the conclusion that pre-trib just reads too much into scripture, too many assumptions(types) for me right now. Maybe I'll see the light sometime Ed! I appreciate your efforts. Regardless, I am not dogmatic about this and believe this should not be a contentious issues in Christianity. I have seen some make it a major separation issue. I really don't know why. To think you have it all figured out(prophecy) and couldn't be wrong in a given area is quite prideful in my humble opinion.
    Anyway,
    Love God,
    Love Your Neighbor,
    Todd
     
  7. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Many preTribs also embrace this truth. This is a must for we that believe in the dispensational gospel of Paul. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  8. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery New Member

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    IMHO pre-trib rapture is all Christians now
    post-trib rapture all those turn to christ during the trib

    Its that simply again IMHO


    Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Tfisher1: //To think you have it all figured out (prophecy)
    and couldn't be wrong in a given area is quite prideful
    in my humble opinion. //

    I have tryed here at BB to start a discussion
    several times: 'Would the Holy Spirt tell one person
    one eschatolagy and another person another eschatology
    and both be right?' My answer is 'yes'.
    But so far i've had no takers.

    I'm still speaking with all the post-tribs
    i've talked to who still want to talk to me.
     
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I've joked with some post trib friends (remember, I'm reformed baptist and MOST such are somewhat "post") that their rapture is a "yo-yo" - think Up/Down . . [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    There are two sources of post-trib rapture
    theory:

    1. Pre-millinnial Second Coming
    2. a-millinnial Second Coming (the Second
    Coming is individual, Spiritual, or
    already happened).

    -----------------------------
    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib pre-mill outline:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- you are here
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Peterist a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection &lt;done happened
    2. Tribulation time &lt;-- or maybe you are here
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event &lt;done happend
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;done happened
    5. new heaven & new earth &lt;-- or maybe you are here

    Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
    view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
    Ed recommends:
    get Rapture Ready!
    Stay Rapture Ready!
     
  12. Bro. Ruben

    Bro. Ruben New Member

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    What will happen to the Old Testament believers during the rapture, are they also included; I believe only the Christians (dead and alive) are the ones to be caught away.

    Next is on Tribulation; what happens when a person (during the Tribulation)accepts the Lord and then died (also during the Tribulation - if there is death during it), since there is no second rapture, how could he/she join the Millenium? Would he/she just stay up there in heaven?

    I wish I made myself clear here.

    Thanks, God bless.
     
  13. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    YHO here coincides with MHO. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen
    on: "... pre-trib rapture is all Christians now"

    I respectfully disagree about "post-trib rapture all those turn to christ during the trib".
    Though in a way this is right.

    God's purpose for the Tribulation Period is
    to SAVE ALL ISRAEL (see Romans 11).
    To do that God takes all the mostly gentile
    church (contains some Messianic Jews, including
    the 144,000 Messianic Jews that are raptured)
    out of the world. I'm not even sure any
    gentiles will be saved. If you are Gentile
    and are waiting to be saved in the Tribulation,
    forget it. Maybe you can be saved as a
    stilborn Christian: one whose first confession
    that "Jesus is Lord" is their last words on
    earth. But I don't think there will be lots
    of such people.

    God's purpose for the Tribulation Period is
    to SAVE ALL ISRAEL (see Romans 11). So millions
    will be saved by believing the God raised
    Jesus from the dead while confessing
    that "Jesus is Lord" (which in Israeli terms
    would be "Jesus is the Messiah".

    The biggest group that will be saved will be
    saved when the Antichrist goes into the
    restored Temple in Jerusalem and declars himself
    to be God and should be worshiped as God.
    Then many Jews will see that the Antichrist
    (the INSTEAD OF CHIRST) is indeed the chief
    cornerstone: the stone the builders had rejected.

    Of course, that is only my Scripturally based IMHO.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I agree. I have no clear scriptural
    backing for this; I have no scriptural
    reason to deny it is as you said.

    I think that modern methods
    of detection (not to mention the old fashion
    turning your brother in) will mean that anybody
    that get saved outside the reach of the
    Antichrist forces - these would be so few
    in number, they arn't even worth considering
    or worth mention in the scripture.
    IMHO, the Antichrist kingdom will not have
    thousands fooling Antichrist like in the
    LEFT BEHIND series. LEFT BEHIND, the book/movie/etc
    is NOT like my Bible reads, but was good
    enough to make LaHaye, the prophet,
    a millionare profit.
     
  16. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer New Member

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    Ed I agree this topic keeps coming up. But it will continue as long as their are new Christians and even old Christians with new questions.

    If you think about it, most of what we learn in church is just repetition. Whenever I am reading the Bible to my sons(8 and under) they always have to remind me that I already read them that passage or that story before.

    But I tell them that repeating it is important, because it continues to be put fresh in your mind and you always learn some new truth from the same passages.

    It is the same with this topic. I know it becomes tiresome for us sometimes, because we always feel that any new discussion means we have to defend our various positions.

    But hey, thats what cut and paste is for! [​IMG]

    By the way for all you newbies reading this, I am Historic Premil(Post Trib) or as Dr. Bob likes to call us the Yo-Yo guys(up and down).


    http://www.ifbreformation.org/Prophecy_Intro.aspx
    http://www.ifbreformation.org/Prophecy_Israel_Church.aspx
    http://www.ifbreformation.org/Prophecy_Historic_timeline.aspx
    http://www.ifbreformation.org/WebReview_PostTribs_Mill.aspx

    IFBReformer
    http://www.ifbreformation.org
     
  17. gekko

    gekko New Member

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  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The two witnesses cannot be killed near
    the end of the Tribulation period - nobody
    would know about it.
    The death of the two witnesses has to
    be a mid-trib event.

    ------------------------
    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth
    ------------------------
    Expanded pretrib timeline:

    0. church age continues

    1. rapture/resurrection

    2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

    2a. Starting events
    2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
    2a2. The revelation of the AC

    2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
    2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
    2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
    ---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
    2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
    2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
    2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
    2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
    ----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

    2c. the mid-tribulation events
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
    2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
    2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
    2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
    2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
    2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
    2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
    2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
    2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
    2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
    2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
    2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
    ----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
    2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
    ----- (Rev 12:1-6)

    2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
    2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
    2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
    ---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
    2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

    2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
    ------- (Rev 16:12-16)
    2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
    ------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18)
    2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
    ------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
    2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
    2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
    ------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

    (2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
    ---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
    3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
    - 19:20-22!
    3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

    5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

    6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

    7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

    8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

    9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

    10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
    and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!
     
  19. danrusdad

    danrusdad New Member

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    Wow! Ever here of TV, Ed? It doesn't take much for the whole world to know anything these days.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Tfisher1: //Personally, Ive read about everything there is to read on both
    sides and have come to the conclusion that pre-trib just reads
    too much into scripture, too many assumptions(types) for me
    right now.//

    Actually, I find it simpler than that. The difference between
    the various positions: Pretrib pre-mill, Post-trib Post-mill,
    Post-trib a-mill, a-trib a-mill, preterist a-mill, etc. -
    boils down to the difference of a few key words - not HARD words,
    but some of the simplist words of all: 'day', 'first', 'he' and 'and'.

    'And' can mean one of the following. Which it means
    in the Bible can made a difference.

    1. as the ancient language form of our modern outline
    2. the polysyndeton
    3. connector of two sets denoting equal sets
    (equal sets are two sets containing the same objects)
    4. connector of a set and it's subset
    (a subset contanins members only of the set, but not all the set
    is that subset)
    5. connector of two similar but unequal sets

    I.E. (in other words): the meaning of 'and' cannot be determined by the form
    of the 'and' either in Greek or English or Hebrew. Only
    with the context and the Holy Spirit can one correctly
    understand the Bible. In Greek 'and' is frequently the
    translation of the Greek 'Kai'

    In 2 Thess 2:1 the different understandings of the meaning
    of 'and' determine what you make of
    'by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' 'and' by
    our gathering together unto him'.

    If you pick AND3; then the is two phrases describing the same
    event (set of things that happen), and you must be a post-trib rapturist
    If you pick AND5; then the two phrases describe two seperate events
    and you must be pre-trib rapturist. All over the ultra-simple word 'and'.

    And we haven't gotten to complex words like 'day' (in 2 Peter 3:10
    for eschatology, and Genesis 1 for age of the earth [​IMG] ),
    and 'first' (in Revelation 20:5), not to mention the esoteric
    resolution of the pronoun 'he' (in Daniel 9:27).
     
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