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Do you believe in the rapture?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Askjo, Dec 9, 2005.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I agree we won't know the day or hour. Never mentions the year, or any other time frame, though. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, I also agree we should know when the time is near by seeing certain things come to pass. Too soon for a shot at predictions from my understanding but I’ll be watching!
     
  2. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Benjamin

    I have friends that migrate with the birds, they left today for Arizona with a fifth wheel RV, they will be staying down there for several months. I would like to do it but time is so short, it might not happen.

    Regarding your "watching" for the return of Christ, I find no Scripture stating we are to watch for it.

    Are we to "wait" or "watch" for Christ in Hebrews 10:25, what position are we to take in anticipation of his return?

    Heb. 10:25 NIV
    "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching."

    "Wait" or "watch," which one is it?
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Prophecynut: //Regarding your "watching" for the return of Christ,
    I find no Scripture stating we are to watch for it.//

    I find such a scripture said by
    Jesus in: Luke 21:36 (KJV1611 Edition):

    Watch ye therefore, and pray alwayes,
    that ye may be accompted worthy to escape all
    these things that shall come to passe, and
    to stand before the sonne of man.

    As for me and my house, we will
    be watching and praying.
     
  4. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jo$h, maybe since you are new, you do not have a good grasp on BB policy and rules. You posted a LOT of information regarding the coming of Jesus. I have no problem with you discussion.

    My problem is that you obviously clipped and pasted a tremendous amount of information. First, if you wish to post such a large amount, you might want to make certain YOU did all of the writing. I have seen the information you posted at other locations on the web, so unless I am horribly mistaken, I have to assume that you took the information from another site.

    That information probably has a copyright. You must understand that the copyright laws that are in effect today do NOT require a notice of copyright. Therefore, I advise that you simply place a link to the information.

    I understand that you wanted to make a point, but you need to make a point with a link--if you are using someone elses material. Or at least, use smaller amounts (due to the fair copyright laws) and give the author the credit.

    Otherwise, we will edit long posts such as the one on page four if they occur again.

    The reason I am making this public, is so that everybody knows our policy and whether you are new or not it never hurts to review BB rules.

    Thank you,
     
  5. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    There are a lot of Californians coming out here to buy new homes, I’ve been building entertainment centers and offices for them one after the other by referral. It’s been real dry here if you come please bring rain.

    Right after we’re told that no man knows the day or hour.

    (Mar 13:33) Take ye heed, watch and pray : for ye know not when the time is.

    (Mar 13:34) For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch .

    (Mar 13:35) Watch ye therefore : for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

    (Mar 13:36) Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

    (Mar 13:37) And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

    I’m going to wait and watch, my position is not to forsake our gathering together with Him but to carefully watch and be prepared to endure which includes encouragement.

    As long as I’m in this flesh body I will be waiting and watching. No migrating bird thing for me. [​IMG] Funny comparison-just kidding. :D
     
  6. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Bejamin

    I would never live in Arizona, if I do fly down with the birds I'll ask God on the way about giving you rain, if that doesn't work you could hire the local Indians to dance for you.

    You are thinking like ED by including the Church in the context of Mt. 24; Mk. 13 and Lk. 21. These chapters describe the Jews and Israel during the time of "Jacob's trouble," not the Church which was still a mystery and unknown to the disciples at the time of the Olivet Discourse.

    Everything about the Church was revealed to Paul after Jesus ascended to the Father. Can you locate in Paul's letters where he instructs the Church to watch for the Rapture?

    1. According to Heb. 10:25 we will know the Day of the Rapture, we will be able look forward to the day and wait until it happens

    Wait - to stay or rest in expectation; remain in
    a state of readiness until the Rapture happens.


    2. According to Mt. 24.42, the Jews during the Tribulation are told to keep watch because they do not know what day their Lord will come.

    Watch - to be alertly on the lookout, to observe as to see what happens during the Tribulation when their Lord will return.

    Do you see how "wait" applies to the Church and "watch" applies to Israel?
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Right in the great pre-tribulation rapture passage
    of 1 Thessalonians 4: -5:11 it says:

    1 Thessalonians 5:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Therefore let vs not sleepe, as doe others:
    but let vs
    watch [/b]and be sober.[/b]

    Obviously we are to watch for the rapture
    (and stay sober).

    Please don't tell me that this applies
    only to Yisrael. Thank you.
     
  8. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Ed!!! You and I thinking alike brother! [​IMG] Who’da ever thunk it. The rest of this is sounding like hyper-dispensationalism to me, haven’t seen to many treads on that lately. Gal 3:28-29

    Paul’s letters along with much of the NT are full of commands and warnings of being prepared in how we should walk, (1Th 4:4) every one of you should know how to possess his vessel, -equipment (Gal6:6-18)
    V18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

    “ALL” (Mark 13:37), part of being prepared is watching for the things that will come to pass and not sleeping.

    Hebrews 10:25 says as ye see the day approaching, doesn’t say we will know what day that is, only how to conduct ourselves as we see it getting nearer. I will watch and wait while on the lookout conducting myself best I can under the circumstances. 1Tim 4.

    Sorry, We’re on a different page here, Colossians 3:11 applies to both in the body of Christ (the Church).

    Have a Merry Christmas [​IMG]
     
  9. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    A contradiction, first you say we will not know the day and then you say we will see it coming.

    Heb. 10:25
    ".... - and all the more as you see the Day approaching."

    "See" - Greek emblepo to look straightforward, usually signifying a look of interest, love, or concern. This same Greek word is used in Lk. 22:61 when Jesus "looked straight at Peter." The Church will be able to look straight at the Day coming.

    Have a nice Christmas.
     
  10. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Holman Christian Standard Bible

    1 Thess. 5:

    5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We're not of the night or (sons) of darkness

    6 So then, we must not sleep, like the rest, but we must stay awake and be sober.

    "Sons of darkness" antonym of "sons of light."

    "Sleep" antonym of "awake."


    "Sleep" - spiritual insensitivity to the last days and the coming of the day of the Lord.

    "Awake" - spiritual awareness of the last days and the coming of the day of Christ.

    "Watch" - gregoreno to take heed lest through remission and indolence some destrutive calamity (Tribulation) overtake you.

    The day of the Lord will not overtake the sons of light "like a thief," only those who are asleep (v.4).

    Why? Because "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (v.9).
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    Jesus said that even He did not know the day and the hour that He would return. It is only known by the Father.

    Therefore, I see all attempts to deturn when the second coming will be based on current events, etc. to be fruitless and contrary to the Bible.
     
  12. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    StraightAndNarrow,

    Jesus stated He did not know the day or hour of
    His coming in the context of "knowing it will occur immediately AFTER the great tribulation". Matt.24:29; Mark 13:24; Matt.24:36.

    Since that is true, would it not be better to
    agree with Him that the time is coming when
    Believers will "know the End is Near"? 24:33.

    Perhaps the best thing to do is find out on
    what basis Believers will know the End is Near.
    How about the "abomination in the Temple" or
    even the yet to be seen "Mystery Babylon that
    will rule the kings of earth"? God commands His people to come out of her or they will partake of her plagues". Rev.18:4.

    When do you think she might "rule the kings of earth for a short time" in relation to her fall by fire at the hands of 10 Kings? Rev.17:12-18.

    Mel Miller
    Junior Member 13061 of www.lastday.net
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
  14. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    StraightAndNarrow,

    I am waiting for your reply about the relation
    of that which is "contextual" to what may be termed as "current"; but I would like to add further thoughts that you might consider as it relates to what you have written:

    "I see all attempts to (deturn?) determine when the second coming will be based on current events, etc. to be fruitless and contrary to the Bible."

    Is it not obvious that Jesus had both Pre-Trib
    Saints and Trib-Saints in mind in Matt.24?

    Pre-Tribbers use His statement that "no one
    knows the day or hour" as referring to His
    coming *before* the Tribulation, i.e., that
    no specific signs must take place first. This
    conclusion is then applied to what happens irrespective of signs that may/or may not/
    occur before the Rapture.

    Trib-Saints will refer the same statement to
    the Day He is coming *after* the Tribulation.

    In light of these facts, when will Saints
    relate specific signs as precursors that
    fall under the category of "watching" as
    well as "waiting" for Christ to appear?

    Please include the reference of Jesus to
    the "blessing to those who watch" in what
    will obviously be "current" with respect to
    TIME as well as "contextual" with reference
    to those who are "watching"?

    In other words, when does the "watching" and
    "waiting" begin/end?

    Mel Miller Junior Member www.lastday.net
     
  15. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    The key to interpreting prophecy is to make the distinction between Israel and the Church. The Church is not spiritual Israel and Israel is not the Church. God has not forsaken His people who He foreknew. We are in the "times of the Gentiles" now. Temporarily the nation of Israel has been set aside in the purposes of God. Today He is creating a special body of saved people composed both of Jews and Gentiles (the Church). After this present work is accomplished, God will again resume His purposes with the nation Israel and will fulfill all the O.T. promises and prophecies concerning them.

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Romans 11:25-27)

    Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 (the Olivet Discourse) are speaking of the Tribulation period when God will once again turn to Israel and complete His program with them. These chapters are NOT dealing with the Rapture--the Rapture is for the Church, not Israel. At the time of the Rapture, Jesus will come FOR His Bride, the Church; at the Second Coming, He will come WITH His Bride to set up His earthly Millennial Kingdom, where He will rule for a literal 1,000 years, on the earth, from Jerusalem.

    And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zechariah 14:4)
     
  16. ronthedisciple

    ronthedisciple New Member

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    My personal opinions about The Rapture are just that - personal. I am not completely convinced of any contemporary interpretation of escatological events. Having said that, it must be noted that my faith is not dependent upon my understanding of God's plan for our futures, but rather, my understanding of God's plan for our future is dependent upon my faith. I didn't need to know that Jesus was coming back again in order to believe in His coming the first first time, nor did I need to know it to become His servant and a child of the Family of Almighty God.
     
  17. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    I suppose I shouldn't get caught up in these discussions about the end times because I take a very simplistic view. I believe that there will be one second coming of Christ (not two or 3), one rapture of all to face one judgement. I base these beliefs on a course in Daniel and Revelation I taught in our adult Sunday School.

    Basically, I think we can get all caught up (so to speak) in pre/mid/post trib rapture, the tribulation, and the millenium and lose sight of the most important points. These are:

    1) Trust Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior,

    2) Pick up your cross and follow Him,

    3) Love the Lord your God and your neighbor, especially through leading him to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

    If I do these things, I will be ready for whatever end time events that will actually occur. Like the wise virgins, I will have enough oil and enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.
     
  18. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Linda64,

    You have written two wonderful truths, i.e.,

    1. "The key to interpreting prophecy is to make the distinction between Israel and the Church."

    2. "Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 (the Olivet Discourse) speak of the Tribulation period when God will once again turn to Israel and complete His program with them."

    Have you studied the relationship of these two
    truths to God using the Church to prepare Israel for Messiah until the last Gentile is saved?

    We know from Paul's context to which you refer
    that Jews will become jealous at some point but not yet be saved until the "full number of Gentiles has been included" in the Body of Christ. Then God once again "turns to Israel".

    Since on that Day Jesus (3rd person singular) will "gather the Elect from earth to heaven,"
    are you sure the Olivet Discourse does NOT
    refer to the rapture?

    Who are the Elect whom Jesus (3rd person sing) personally "gathers from earth to heaven" in
    Mark's account (and who in Matthew's account are
    already "in the air") BEFORE the tribes of earth mourn? If those who mourn are the Jews who will be saved after the last saved Gentile enters the Body of Christ, would Angels (3rd person plural)
    "gather only the Jews who mourn out of all the extremities of the heavens" . . . but leave Trib-Saints BEHIND?

    Can you be sure Jesus did NOT have the "full
    number" of all the Saints in mind right up to the day He "gathers the Elect from the earth" and the Jews "pray that they may escape all these things and stand before the Son of Man"? Luke 21:36.

    Do you see Jesus "gathering" Jews who mourn
    "from earth to heaven" and leaving Believers
    on earth in their mortal bodies to populate
    His kingdom? Will these Jews join the Saints
    coming from heaven while Trib-Saints (including the Martyrs to the End) are excluded from the Elect "gathered together above"? 2 Thess.2:1.

    Or did Jesus refer only to Believers when He promised to "gather the elect from earth to heaven in the days after the tribulation"? Mark 13:24-27. May the unknown Day of Luke 21:35 that "comes as a snare" be the very Day for which Believers are "watching" and also be the Day when the Jews will mourn when they see Him appear with ALL the Saints? Paul teaches that ALL the Saints come with Jesus; not just Pre-Trib Saints. I Thes.3:13.

    Am I presumptuous to think those that "mourn and who pray to escape all these things" are only the Jews? Endtime Saints know they will be "kept from God's wrath"; for they are faithful to the End; "none of them will worship the Beast". Rev.
    13:8; Rev.17:8. But millions of Jews will pray
    to escape and will be "kept alive". Luke 17:33.

    Mel Miller Junior Member www.lastday.net
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Ephesians 2:6-7 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And hath raised vs vp together, and made vs sit together
    in heauenly places in Christ Iesus:
    7 That in the ages to come, hee might shew
    the exceeding riches of his grace, in his kindenesse towards vs,
    through Christ Iesus.

    Amen, Brother Paul - Preach it!

    I would be remiss if i knew some of the depth of
    the exceeding riches of his grace and didn't tell you about them.

    --------------------------------------


    Five Judgements

    The Lord God is a judging God

    "To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

    A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
    B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
    C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

    The Five Judgements:

    1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
    WHO: All who will Believe
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
    (and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    "

    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    WHO: Believers for works
    WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
    Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Heaven
    WHY: to assign rewards (including
    the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
    to the redeemed for their good works
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
    (Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
    Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
    WHO: Yisrael
    WHEN: during the Tribulation
    WHERE: earth
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Great Tribulation

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    (AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
    WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    (Revelation 20:11:15)
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    judgements above does not preclude other specific
    or general judgements. One place on the net i found
    a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
    The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
    by His revelation to us nor
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    --compilation by ed,
    incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    I both believe in the rapture of the saints, and preach it.
     
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