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Do you believe in the rapture?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Askjo, Dec 9, 2005.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Amen!!! Preach it!!!!

    I try to live my life according to the first coming, not the second.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I. FIRST PROBLEM
    One of the problems I see with eschatology is that
    people insist on asking questions which just weren't asked
    before; no direct answer is found in the Bible.

    Bro.Ruben: //What will happen to the Old Testament believers
    during the rapture,
    are they also included; ... //

    Bro. Ruben: //accepts the Lord and then died (also during the Tribulation - if there
    is death during it), since there is no second rapture,
    how could he/she join the Millenium? Would he/she just stay up
    there in heaven?//

    II. SECOND PROBLEM
    The second problem I see is that if you do the logical
    thing:
    first, determine from what is given in the BIble
    the general priniples
    second, extrapolate from the general prinicples what is
    the answer to the non-directly answered questions;
    then then folks come up with DIFFERENT
    principles, and then come up with different answers to
    the non-directly answered question, then argue about
    the various answers to the the non-directly answered question
    INSTEAD of the Biblicaly derived 'general prinicples'

    Here is a recap by Mel Miller of a couple of general principles:

    //You have written two wonderful truths, i.e.,

    //1. "The key to interpreting prophecy is to make the distinction
    between Israel and the Church."

    //2. "Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 (the Olivet Discourse)
    speak of the Tribulation period when God will once again turn
    to Israel and complete His program with them."//

    I believe these are general principles that are correct.

    III. THIRD PROBLEM
    The third problem is with definitions. What is a person talking
    about. I just agreed with two general principles above,
    but does the parties writing these mean the same thing that
    I mean by these words? Do the parties writing these mean the
    same thing the Bible means?

    Anyway, in the post where Mel Miller quoted those principles,
    he says:

    //Who are the Elect whom Jesus (3rd person sing) personally
    "gathers from earth to heaven" in
    Mark's account (and who in Matthew's account are
    already "in the air") BEFORE the tribes of earth mourn?//

    1. He has the time order confused because he
    A. doesn't properly define 'elect'
    B. doesn't properly define 'rapture'
    C. (doesn't properly define 'resurrection)
    (this third 'confusion' is implied not explicit).

    IV. FOURTH PROBLEM
    The thrust toward ignorance is running amock in
    Baptist churches especially. This tendancy toward
    holding ignorance (not knowing) as a value has an
    American Political significance: the 'Know Nothing'
    party of the 19th Century (1801-1900) especially
    after the American Civil War. The current manisfestation
    is in the Baptist Curches and comes out as:

    1. The less formal training a pastor has, the closer
    to God and God's message he is
    2. calling a Seminary: 'the Cemetary'
    3. Government schools are corrupting our children
    and sending them to hell
    4. etc.

    Of course, these teaching usually come much more
    subtile than i've explained them.

    Ronthedisciple: //I didn't need to know
    that Jesus was coming back again in order to believe
    in His coming the first first time, nor did I need to know
    it to become His servant and a child of the Family of Almighty God. //

    Yet 1/4 to 1/3 of the New Testament is on these matters.
    Is it wise to be ignorant of this much of the Bible?

    You don't have to know what a King is to know you are
    the Son of a King (God's child, natural born in the second
    birth and adopted as well) - but does it not help to know?

    StraightAndNarrow: //Basically, I think we can get all caught up (so to speak)
    in pre/mid/post trib rapture, the tribulation, and the millenium
    and lose sight of the most important points. These are:

    //1) Trust Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior,

    //2) Pick up your cross and follow Him,

    //3) Love the Lord your God and your neighbor,
    especially through leading him to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

    //If I do these things, I will be ready for whatever
    end time events that will actually occur. Like the wise virgins,
    I will have enough oil and enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.//

    Amen, these are the important things. But note my FIVE JUDGEMENTS
    writing above is an evangelistic message. You go talking 'you sinna'
    to folks and it is a turn off. But if you know things that are
    going to happen in the future - then you will be listened to.
    Nobody wants to be reminded they are a sinner. Nearly everybody wants
    to know what the future is going to be like.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    There are two sets of definitions used in this topic already:

    I.
    rapture - the raising of the dead and the living for transport to heaven
    resurrection - the raising of the dead and the living
    for living on earth
    (note that 'raising the living for living' is rather moot, so this
    statement generally reads: 'the raising of the dead for living on earth'.)
    Note that these definitions presuppose the pretribulation rapture
    being different from the postribulation resurrection. So if you
    use this set of definitions, you must believe in the pretribulation
    rapture

    II.
    rapture - the 'falling away' from the earth of the living who are given
    glorified bodies
    resurrection - the raising of the dead who are given glorified bodies

    (note that the prototype resurrections restore bodies to the
    raised for living on earth: Lasuras and Jarid's Daughter)


    Consider the long post by Jo$h on page 4 at
    December 16, 2005 07:09 PM EST :

    There seem to be two types of entries:

    1. The feeling that the time the Lord comes (in the rapture)
    is going to be soon.

    2. A specific nearby date is projected

    I've seen a third class of dates for the pretribulation rapture:
    a far off date. This is just pure error.

    Type 1 projects are always correct and always scriptural.
    Since the Day of Pentacost, true Christians have always considered
    the Return of the Lord nearby. Once an angostic asked me, how
    long will you wait? Well, a year doesn't seem to long, but
    with God 1 day is as a 1,000 years. So I don't suppose it would
    be to long to wait 365,000 years before I start reporting
    that Jesus might NOT come back? Anway, we now stand at the
    end of the second day of God since Jesus left promising a
    soon return. ('I return quickly' means 'soon, and very soon').

    Type two projects are always wrong. In Feb 1988 I was handed
    a booklet "88 reasons Jesus will return in 1988". I put it
    on my reading schedule for Janualry 1989. In that book after
    a nuclear holocaust destroying all of the US and half of Russian,
    the pretribualtion rapture was masked by the nulear blasts.
    To bad the guy didn't know that in 1984 the continent of Africa
    surpassed the continent of North America in the number of
    Christians living there :( So if a major Nuclear war masks
    the pretirbulation rapture, include sub-Saharian* Africa getting zapped .

    *note 'sub_saharian' Africa means all of Africa south of the
    Sahara Desert. In the Sahara and north of the Sahara is mostly
    Muslim countries.

    Anyway, I figured I was safe for Sept 1988 the Lord not returing
    at the pretribulation rapture.

    What really irks me is that the date is predicted for the
    postrib coming of Jesus when He destroyes the Antichrist and
    his words and his people and has a resurrection of the
    trib age, Jewish, saints. For one thing, I think the pretribulation
    rapture of the largely gentile (some Messianic Jews) elect saints
    is the 70th week of Daniel - a period of 7 years before the
    postribualtion Coming of Jesus to defeat all His enemies.
    So when I see such a date prejected for the Second Coming of Jesus,
    i back the calendar up 7 years and see if the pretibulation rapture
    is to come off.

    During the First Persian Gulf War of President Daddy Bush,
    Edgar C. Whisenant of Arkansas
    predicted that the Second Comming even would be in Sept 2000
    at Roshanna that year, being like 20-22 Sept 2000.
    Several people in the SUDDAM HUSAIN IS ANTICHRIST web predicted
    that date.
    So i back my calendar back to Sept 1993. Well lo and behold,
    right about 21 Sept 1993 the Palistini Arafat and the whoever
    was the leader of Israel at the time - there they are with President
    Bill 666 Clinton: signing a peace treaty for the safety and
    future of Jerusalem. Which is nice in light of Daniel 9:27.
    But there was no nearly rapture of the saints to go with it.
    So I knew we were safe from a post-tribulation resurrection until
    after 2000.

    BTW, the excessively long list is found numerous places on
    the interenet where folks like to poo-poo the pretribulation rapture
    or even the rapture. But like 15 years ago the same list was
    (of course the last 15 yeras weren't there) found only on a few
    select Missionary Athiest sites. On the Athiest sites it was
    used as a stick to beat down Christians of all sorts. "If this
    is an example of 'Christian' then all Christians are no good"
    is what they mean.
     
  4. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    You claim the people judged here are not saved. I can see that this passage supports sending the cursed to Hell. I don't see anything about sending the "blessed" to the Millenium. The only way to be blessed is to be a Christian. Where does your assessment come from that these are blessed because of the way they have treated Israel? The passage does say for both the cursed and the blessed that they will be judged based on accepting Christ and following Him. If these are the "blessed" do they go to Heaven? Will that be based on this judgment or another one? Which other one?

    Here you only include the damned in this judgement. But the Bible says:

    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    I don't see anything here to indicate that there won't be saved people coming out of this judgement. Where do you get that?
     
  5. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Hi Ed Edwards,

    I think Jesus gave the best description of the
    Rapture that can be found which includes "all
    the souls of those who sleep in Jesus" being included among those whom "God brings with
    Jesus when He comes with ALL the Saints."

    The souls of Tri-Martyrs will be among those
    whom "God will bring with Jesus" and they are
    among "all the Saints who come with Him at
    His Presence". I Thess.3:13 and 4:13-14.

    Jesus has "all elect saints" in mind when He
    gathers them "from earth to heaven after the
    tribulation" (3rd person sing; Mark 13:24,27)
    and He sends (still 3rd person singular; Mark 13:27) the Angels to "gather them out of all
    extremities of the heavens" unto Himself.
    Matt.24:31. See also 2 Thess.2:1 for the same "gathering"!

    The tribes of earth "mourn" between the moment
    Jesus "gathers all the elect (vertically) from the earth" and the moment the angels complete the process (horizontally) from around the globe of "gathering us to the Synagogue" in the Sky.
    2 Thess.2;1.

    Jesus and Paul use the same word for gathering the Elect so that not only is it true that "all believers will rise up on the lastday"; but ALL the saints will come with Jesus" as Paul wrote.

    We, including Trib-Martys who "die in the Lord" (Rev.14:13) cannot ALL come with Him unless "God brings their souls with Jesus" on the last day and we and they are ALL gathered from "earth to heaven" *after* the tribulation as Jesus taught. Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31; John 6:38-40.

    Respectfully, I note you failed to say why Jesus did NOT describe the Rapture in Mark 13;27 NOR did you show that the "Jews are the Elect" in Matt.24:31 as commonly taught by Pre-Tribbers!!

    Why would Jesus "gather the Jews from earth to
    heaven" and leave suffering Trib-Saints behind? All of them have their names "written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world". Rev.17:8.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    StraightAndNarrow: //The only way to be blessed is to be a Christian.//

    Your statement is in error. Unless, of course, you have a Bible
    verse (well several, i use just one):

    Isa 19:25 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Whom the Lord of hosts shal blesse, saying,
    Blessed be Egypt my people,
    and Assyria the work of my hands,
    and Israel mine inheritance.

    Which of these three groups are 'Christian' - none.
    Which of these three groups is to be blessed - all three.

    Referenceing Revelation 20:11-15 StraightAndNarrow says:
    //I don't see anything here to indicate that there won't be saved people coming out of this judgement. Where do you get that?//

    I don't see anything that says saved people are at this judgement.
    Everybody there seems damned by the books of works and
    there name is not in the book of life.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mel Miller: //The souls of Tri-Martyrs will be among those
    whom "God will bring with Jesus" and they are
    among "all the Saints who come with Him at
    His Presence". I Thess.3:13 and 4:13-14.//

    I think you miss out that the eternal part (soul)
    and the temporal part (body) of the dead in Christ
    are in two places for the dead at the pretribulation
    rapture. The soul and body of the ones raised
    alive at the pretribulation rapture are already together.

    I thess 3:13 is about the postribulation resurrection
    when all the saints are with the Lord; I thess 4:13-14
    is about the pretirulation rapture when not all the
    saints come with the Lord.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
    (in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
    instead of an outline. This is most noticable
    in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
    I believe the major outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
     
  9. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Brother Ed Edwards,

    Thank you so much for agreeing with me that
    I Thess.3:13 involves the Post-Trib
    Resurrection of the Saints?

    //I thess 3:13 is about the postribulation resurrection when all the saints are with the Lord.//

    Paul places this resurrection at the time
    "ALL the Saints come WITH Jesus Christ".

    You agree these Saints include the SOULS of
    Trib-Martyrs at the time of the Post-Trib Resurrection. They are "asleep in Jesus" even
    during the 3 1/2 days "after the tribulation"
    during which the SOULS of the Two Witnesses
    are in heaven waiting for the Resurrection!

    It is possible that the souls and bodies of
    these two will be united before "God brings
    the souls of the rest of the Dead in Christ
    with Jesus" at the Post-Trib Resurrection.
    But it must happen on the "lastday". John 6:40.

    According to His own word, He will "raise up
    ALL believers on the last day" . . not just the "dead in Christ"! All must depart "from the earth" on the same day or His promise is unreal!

    Can you substantiate your basic premise that:

    //I thess 3:13 is about the postribulation resurrection when all the saints are with the Lord// BUT that these saints do not include
    those in I Thess.4:17 who are "alive and remain at His visible Presence" as of Matt.24:30?!

    When is the time for "gathering those who are
    alive and survive" after they see the END of the age and the deaths of the Two Witnesses? For in your post as of 8:10 AM today you wrote:

    //The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the current church age// [Are there two ENDS of the age?]

    Please explain what is the hope for those who
    are "alive and remain" while the two Witnesses
    taste death for up to 3 1/2 days after having demonstrated God's kingdom power for 1260 days.

    "Some standing there will taste death after the 1260 days" (Mark 9:1); but not all. God will
    "bring the SOULS of the some who die" with Jesus on one of those 3 1/2 days after the tribulation and all those "alive in Christ and who survive to the END will be caught up together with
    the dead in Christ to meet the Lord".

    That, my friend, is what Jesus reaffirms in
    Rev.2:26-27 ... that those who "overcome to the
    END will reign with Him over the nations"!

    Is it your doctrine that there are TWO ENDS
    of the Age; one in which Jesus promises to be
    with us only to the END of the Church Age . .
    and one in which He will "first" separate the tares from the wheat? Matt.28:20; Matt.13:30.

    Jesus promised to "raise up surviving Trib-
    Saints who are alive (having brought only the SOULS of Trib-Martyrs with Him) and He will raise them up and gather them together above, from earth to heaven" before "He sends the Angels to gather their BODIES and SOULS from
    all extremities of the heavens" . . while those who mourn are left behind but "kept alive" if they "beg (Greek) to escape and to prevail by standing before the Son of Man"! John 6:38-40; Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:31; Luke 17:33; 21:36.

    Mel Miller Junior Member www.lastday.net
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Many of the harpazo (caught up, snatched away) koine roots are translated into one of the rap… Latin words in the Vulgate from whence comes the word "rapture":

    KJV John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    VUL John 10:29 Pater meus quod dedit mihi maius omnibus est et nemo potest rapere de manu Patris mei


    KJV Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.

    VUL Acts 23:10 et cum magna dissensio facta esset timens tribunus ne discerperetur Paulus ab ipsis iussit milites descendere et rapere eum de medio eorum ac deducere eum in castra


    KJV John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

    VUL John 6:15 Iesus ergo cum cognovisset quia venturi essent ut raperent eum et facerent eum regem fugit iterum in montem ipse solus


    KJV Deuteronomy 28:31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.

    VUL Deuteronomy 28:31 bos tuus immoletur coram te et non comedas ex eo asinus tuus rapiatur in conspectu tuo et non reddatur tibi oves tuae dentur inimicis tuis et non sit qui te adiuvet


    KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    VUL 1 Thessalonians 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus


    KJV Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

    VUL Matthew 13:19 omnis qui audit verbum regni et non intellegit venit malus et rapit quod seminatum est in corde eius hic est qui secus viam seminatus est


    KJV Proverbs 4:16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.

    VUL Proverbs 4:16 non enim dormiunt nisi malefecerint et rapitur somnus ab eis nisi subplantaverint


    KJV Proverbs 1:19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.

    VUL Proverbs 1:19 sic semitae omnis avari animas possidentium rapiunt


    KJV Acts 19:29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.

    VUL Acts 19:29 et impleta est civitas confusione et impetum fecerunt uno animo in theatrum rapto Gaio et Aristarcho Macedonibus comitibus Pauli


    KJV 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    VUL 2 Corinthians 12:2 scio hominem in Christo ante annos quattuordecim sive in corpore nescio sive extra corpus nescio Deus scit raptum eiusmodi usque ad tertium caelum


    KJV 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    VUL 2 Corinthians 12:4 quoniam raptus est in paradisum et audivit arcana verba quae non licet homini loqui


    KJV Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    VUL Revelation 12:5 et peperit filium masculum qui recturus erit omnes gentes in virga ferrea et raptus est filius eius ad Deum et ad thronum eius

    HankD
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    You seem to be saying here that believers will not be subject to a judgment after they die. That's contrary to scripture.

    Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    I don't accept the handing out of rewards at the so-called BEMA seat as a judgement. I believe that the result of the Judgement will be to separate all people into the sheep and the goats.
     
  12. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    None of this is supported by scripture. MA 25 says nothing about "God blessing those who bless Yisrael and cursing those who curse Yisrael." It says "all nations" meaning all people will be judged based on what we have done for the least of these my brethren. The sheep go to HEAVEN and the goats go to HELL. (Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.)

    How can you support the theory that life eternal really means the Millenium? I believe that people twist the real meaning of the Judgement because they don't want to accept the FACT that we will be judged by the good that we as Christians have done in His name. Notice that this is not salvation by works. Accepting Christ as our Savior is absolutely necessary first. But then, we must grow in Christ. We must abide in His love. How else can this judgement scene and the one in REV 20 be interpreted?


    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
    Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


    There is nothing here that says that only the damned are being judged here. (and they were judged every man according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.)

    This is just another description of the Judgment, the same Judgment that is described in MA 25.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    StraightAndNarrow: //You seem to be saying here
    that believers will not be subject to a judgment after
    they die. That's contrary to scripture.//

    What I said is NOT what you said I said.
    That would be contrary to scripture.
    What I said is a summary of 100s of scriptures.

    God gave me this writing over a number of years and
    it is NOT considered good debating ethics to deliberately
    miscombobulate what I said. However, if you disagree, feel
    free to DEBATE by saying what is true and giving your
    scriptures.

    There is no sin in heaven. If you go to heaven
    and if you are judged (all will be judged) how can you
    be punished for something that no longer exists (the
    sin that Jesus removed from you with His own precious
    blood shed for you)?

    Note the what/who/how/when/where differences between the
    judgements. All humans must be judged. But I know of
    five different judgements.

    StraightANdNarrow: //Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed
    unto men once to die, but after this the judgment://

    In the name of Jesus I plead that you be a good custodian of
    God's servant's time. I am required by the Holy Scripture
    to check out every scripture that is posted and to check if
    it is true. Please, list the
    Version and Edition of your scripture. Thank you.

    What I said in my Five Judgements post does NOT contradict
    Hebrews 9:27.

    Hebrews 9:27 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And as it is appointed vnto men once to die,
    but after this the Iudgement:


    People have been griping on this topic that it is better
    to witness to people than to argue about the future.
    Yet when I give an evangelic message, somebody wants to jump
    into the middle of it with nits to pick?
    Sorry, I'm not buying it today.

    Show how what I said can be minunderstood to
    mean: "You seem to be saying here that believers will
    not be subject to a judgment after they die.
    That's contrary to scripture."

    That was the furtherest thing from what God was trying to
    say through me. All people will be judged: this includes
    the saved and the unsaved.

    [ January 01, 2006, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    StraightAndNarrow: //It says "all nations" meaning all people
    will be judged based on what we have done for
    the least of these my brethren.//

    IMHO Matthew 25:31-46 says 'all nations' meaning each and
    every nations that survives the Tribulation period.
    For Jesus 'my brethren' is the physical nation of Yisrael.
    Hense my statement: "Judged by their treatment of Yisrael"

    StraightAndNarrow: //MA 25 says nothing about "God blessing those who bless Yisrael and cursing those who curse Yisrael." //

    YOu are correct, Matthew 25 doesn't mention this.

    God said to Abraham when Israel was in his loins:

    Gen 12:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I will blesse them that blesse thee,
    and curse him, that curseth thee: and in thee shal
    all families of the earth be blessed.


    So i see nothing wrong with saying:
    //WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael//

    (free:
    Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Leui also who receiueth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
    Heb 7:10 For hee was yet in the loynes of his Father when Melchisedec met him.

    I note that this refers to the loins of Abraham,
    forefather of Israel, forefather of Levi.
    So any promise said to Abraham was also made to Israel.

    So i see nothing wrong with saying:
    //WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael//

    Differencers betweeen the Matthew 24:31-46
    Sheep & Goat Nations judgements:

    A. NO resurrection
    B. Living Nations judged'
    C. ON THE EARTH (Joel 3:2)
    D. No books mentioned
    E. Three Classes names: 'Sheep', 'Goats', 'Brethren'


    and the Revelation 20:11-15 judgement:
    A. a Resurreciton
    B. DEAD judged
    C. Books Opened
    D. One Class named : 'THE DEAD'
    E. Time - After the Millinnial Kingdom of Messiah Jesus


    The three classes of people:
    1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
    Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
    nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD

    Other supporting scriptures:
    2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15

    The Judgement of Believers for 'works':

    1Co 3:11-15 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For other foundation can no man lay, then that is laide,
    which is Iesus Christ.
    1Co 3:12 Now if any man build vpon this foundation, gold,
    siluer, preciousstones, wood, hay, stubble:
    1Co 3:13 Euery mans worke shall be made manifest.
    For the day shall declare it, because it shall
    bee reuealed by fire, and the fire shall trie
    euery mans worke of what sort it is.
    1Co 3:14 If any mans worke abide which he hath built thereupon,
    he shal receiue a reward.
    1Co 3:15 If any mans worke shall bee burnt,
    he shall suffer losse: but he himselfe shall be saued: yet so, as by fire.

    If any man builds upon the foundation good things,
    then He is REWARDED.
    If bad things then he shall NOT BE REWARDED (suffer loss)
    but STILL BE SAVED.

    Hello, this is JUDGEMENT but a way milder judgement
    for believers than that WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT
    where ALL there will be tossed into everlasting hell fire


    The five crowns are part of this judgement.
    (Note that these crowns are rewards, NOT punishment)

    1. incorruptible crown
    The Victor's crown
    1 Cor 9:25-27

    2. crown of life
    Martyr's Crown
    Rev 2:10

    3. crown of glory
    Elder's Crown
    1 Pet 5:2-4

    4. crown of righteousness
    For those who Love His Appearing
    2 Timothy 4:6

    5. Crown of rejoicing
    Soul Winner's Crown
    1 Thess 2:19-20
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    StraightAndNarrow: //How can you support the theory that life eternal really means the Millenium? I believe that people twist the real meaning of the Judgement because they don't want to accept the FACT that we will be judged by the good that we as Christians have done in His name. Notice that this is not salvation by works. Accepting Christ as our Savior is absolutely necessary first. But then, we must grow in Christ. We must abide in His love.//

    Which part of //WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)//
    are you having problems with?
    These are not SAVED PEOPLE.
    These are nations that survive the Tribulation Period
    and were nice to the Jews.
    This is NOT eternal salvation, only being allowed to
    enter into the Millinnial Kingdom (where some could be
    saved there, by the usual salvation through faith
    in Messiah YEshua.

    StraightAndNarrow: //Accepting Christ as our Savior is absolutely necessary first. //

    for eternal salvation, yes.
    For temporal salvation, no - these unsaved people get to go into
    the Millinnial Kingdom in earthly bodies.

    StraightAndNarrow: //I believe that people twist the real meaning of the Judgement because they don't want to accept the FACT that
    we will be judged by the good that we as Christians
    have done in His name./

    I rebuke your judgement of stuff you don't understand.


    Mat 25:34 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Then shall the King say vnto them on his right hand,
    Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdome prepared
    for you from the foundation of the world.

    Which of the three kingdoms of Christ here get
    turned over to the heathen nations?

    Mat 25:46 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And these shall goe away into euerlasting punishment:
    but the righteous into life eternall.

    The heathen survivor nations that despised and mistreated
    the Jews during the Tribulation Period shall
    inded go into everlasting punishment.

    Does this say "the righteous into life eternall"? - yes.
    Does this say "thre rightous are those in
    verse 34"? - no.
     
  16. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    If the rapture is such an important event in the end times...why is it not clearly seen in the book of Revelation?
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Some point to this passage directed to those of the Church of Philadelphia:

    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Then after the completion of the messages to the seven churches:

    Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    The word "church" is not used again until Revelation 22:16.

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    HankD
     
  18. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    Why was that not addressed to all of the churches if it applies to all? It seems Jesus was talking specifically to this one body, and not the church in general.

    That does not work either. It is addressed to John, not to the whole church.

    That is an argument from silence.

    Again I ask, if the rapture is such an important event in the end times, why is it not clearly seen in the book of Revelation?
     
  19. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    PastorSBC1303

    Good question: "If the rapture is such an important event in the end times, why is it not clearly seen in the book of Revelation"?

    The primary question dealt with from Rev.6:9
    to Rev.20:4 concerns the vengeance promised
    to the Martyrs in answer to their prayer.

    There are 250 verses from Rev.6:1 to Rev.20:6.
    IMO, 40 per cent of these verses deal with
    what happens on the 12-Hour Day that Christ
    comes to avenge their blood.

    On the Lastday, the Martyrs first appear in the open Temple for the judgment rendered in their favor as the Court Sits in Seal 7 (and Dan.7:22).

    Obviously they are not yet resurrected. So it should not even be questioned as to why the
    Rapture is not mentioned. The dead in Christ must "rise up first, before those who are alive and survive", according to Paul's teaching.

    The Church is not mentioned from Chapter 6-20
    because the main subject concerns those who
    "die in the Lord". Rev.14:13. They are "blessed
    FROM this lastday for their works follow them".

    So we find it is the Martyrs whose resurrection
    becomes a prime reason for rejoicing. John sees
    them, in a flashback, as the "souls sitting in
    judgment" at Seal 7 and concludes they will
    "live again in the first resurrection".

    Those who are "alive and survive" will not
    only be "caught up to meet them in the air;
    but will be gathered together above; from
    earth to heaven and then gathered unto Jesus
    from all the extremities of the heavens to
    the Synagogue" in the Sky. Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.

    Mel Miller
    Junior Member 13061 at www.lastday.net
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I gave the best answer I could pastor, that's all there is that I can find in the Book of Revelation. Admittedly its not spelled out to the jot and tittle.

    If it's there and it's "clear", then it has to be one of those things for those "with eyes to see".


    HankD
     
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