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Do you believe in the rapture?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Askjo, Dec 9, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    PastorSBC1303: //Again I ask, if the rapture
    is such an important event
    in the end times, why is it not clearly seen
    in the book of Revelation?//

    Thank you for joining us Brother PastorSBC1303 in
    the rapture discussion thread. Your question is so
    good I'm going to make two questions out of it:

    If the rapture is such an important event
    in the end times, why is it not clearly seen
    by Ed in the book of Revelation?


    It is clearly seen in the Book of Revelation.
    Here is where Clean1 saw it:

    Clean1 in another thread: //Yes, those who are saved
    will be raptured out before
    the trib. It says this in Rev. 7:13-14, "And one of the elders
    answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed
    in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him,
    Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which
    came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes.
    and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."//

    I've had three great revelations myself in my
    eschatological studies (21 years on the internet alone,
    and internet precussors). But I've always been
    pre-mill Second COming, pretrib rapture.


    1. People on an internet precussor bulletin board (bb)
    asked me: If the pretrib rapture is correct, how come
    you can't clearly see it in the writing of Paul
    in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8?

    I can see it cleary.
    I first saw it when I was studying some
    old pre-KJV English translations.
    In 2 Thess 2:1 Paul say he is going to talk
    about two different things:
    A. the Coming of our Lord and Savior
    B. the gathering together of the saints

    Then he goes 7 more verses and doesn't mention
    even once the gathering, only the Coming of our LOrd?
    NOT SO. the gathering together (rapture &/or resurrection)
    is mentioned again in 2 Thess 2:3, it is
    called in five each pre1611 English Bibles with some form of
    'deparuture' and in the King James Version (KJV) as
    'a falling away'. Yep, when Jesus makes so much noise
    that it wakes the dead (1 Thess 4) we will fall away
    from this old earth like pecans falling off a tree shaken
    in November. Fortunately Jesus will be there to catch us
    and take us home to Heaven for the Bema Judgement Seat of Christ:
    the Gentile Age Saints' award ceremony.

    2. People on an internet precussor bulletin board (bb)
    asked me: If there is a future pretrib rapture how come
    John didn't bother to mention it in Revelation?

    He did. I found it. It is BY TYPE in Revelation 4:1.

    3. People on an internet bulletin board (bb)
    asked me: If the pretribulation rapture is so important,
    how come Jesus never mentioned it.

    He did. I found it. It is right there in Mathew 24.
    All you have to do to see it is have a degree in English
    with professors that actually know about the retorical
    device: polysyndeton.
    Sad to say the writer of Matthew didn't have Microsoft Word
    so he didn't have a decent outliner. So he used the
    polysyndeton Greek 'kai' (usually English 'and').
    Letting the Bible explain itself, take Matthew 24:3
    (the questions the disciples asked Jesus) and use it as
    the major outline of Matthew 24:4-44 (the answer that
    Jesus answered to the 3 questions the disciples asked
    in the order of the asking of the question).
    Strangly after using the CONTEXT here, i had one opponent
    tell me my argumetnt was contextually unsound [​IMG]


    If the rapture is such an important event
    in the end times, why is it not clearly seen
    by PastorSBC1303 in the book of Revelation?


    My Pastor went to SouthWestern Seminary in Fort Worth in the
    late 60s. He said at the time that nearly all the profs were
    a-mill post-tribs (I called him to confirm if i remembered right.
    He said ALL the profs at SW were a-mill post-tribs).
    So Brother PastorSBC1303 which (if any) seminary did you
    attend and what did those profs believe? (I know this is nosey,
    so it is up to you to be silent if personal data should not be
    revealed. Consider it a suggestion not /as written/ a command [​IMG] )

    Well, I see StefanM has made a one question quiz
    about "What rapture belief do you esupose?".
    Sorry, one question doesn't go very far.
    I think even here a couple of years ago i hade a rapture quiz
    and asked where folks came from and where they were in regard
    to the rapture. WEll, folks were about 90% pretrib and
    10% post-trib now. They started out about 90% pretrib and 10%
    post-trib. Needless to say, there is more migration from
    pretrib to post-trib than the other direction.

    Here is what they say:

    Tatertot, on another topic:
    //I had similar experiences as well. Always was taught
    pretrib was the only way.
    When I dug into it on my own, I also saw its just not there.
    I can see where the erroneous teachings come from, though.//

    It would be interesting in what the selling point was.
    I also was taught pretrib by the person who taught me how to get
    saved. But when I studied it ON MY OWN i didn't find anthing
    to lead me away (as noted above, I found three more major proofs
    with the guidance of the Holy Spirit).

    And guess where my PROOF TEXT for not changing trib/rapture view
    points is - right in the self/same chapter where my proof text
    of the pretribulation rapture is: 2 Thessalonians 2.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible (Holman, 2003):
    Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold
    to the traditions you were taught, either by our
    messages or by our letter.


    Tatertot: //One thing is for sure, He will wrap it all up in His
    own time and own way. And He WILL wrap it up.//

    Amen, Sister Tatertot - you are RIGHT ON!
    It is just, He told me some details of how He is going to do it
    (it is in the Bible).

    PastorSBC1303 on another topic:
    //I used to say the exact same thing. Until a funny thing happened.
    I decided to actually study God's Word to see what it actually
    said instead of just what I had always been told by Sunday School
    teachers and pastors.//

    'Funny' like in 'ha ha' or like in 'OH WOW!"
    I studied the matter for myself and arrived in the 'OH WOW!"
    region which was pretrib backwards and forwards.

    Strangley, those who care to read some of what I say about
    pretrib will find I believe in the Second Coming of Jesus at
    the end of the Tribulation Period - which is a post-trib resurrection.
    But i DO NOT beleive in a post-trib resurection ONLY.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    StraightANdNarrow in another topic:
    //I believe that the Bible supports:

    //1) One death

    //2) One Second Coming for which we will have no warning signs.

    //3) One Judgement.//

    Nice opinions. Everybody has a few opinions or two.
    Care to show by scriture that there is something to your
    opinion that somebody else might use?

    BTW, your beliefs are unscriptural:

    //1) One death//

    False. Revelation 20:14 speaks of a 'second death'.

    //2) One Second Coming for which we will have no warning signs.//

    Amen, Brother StraightANdNarrow -- Preach it!
    And there is a second Second Coming for which we have
    warnings signs 7-years in advance and more warning signs
    3½-years in advance. That is the major difference for the
    two parts of the second coming - BTW, both parts happen the
    same DAY: which is Daniel's 70th WEEK: which is seven years.

    //3) One Judgement.//

    That is pretty shallow theology. All will be judged.
    Nowhere does it say all will be judged at the same judgement.
    Revelation 20 shows a splitting of the ways - people in the
    First Resurrection will not be at the following Great White
    Throne Judgement. But they are people, and they have to be
    judged somewherer, for all will be judged.
    What you should say is "There is one set of Judgements
    and every person will go to at least one of them".


    StraightAndNarrow in another topic:
    //All the emphasis on the rapture, the tribulation,
    the millenium, and multiple judgements takes us away
    from our principle responsibility to pattern our lives
    after the Lord Jesus and to win the lost to Him. //

    Quite the contray. I, a pretrib rapture believer appear to be
    the only one who has posted an evangelical message calling
    for salvation. The rest of the posts appear to be people giving
    the opinions instead of Scriptural instruction.

    What is the purpose of an eschatology? It is easy to find
    in the scripture. 2 Peter 3 is about eschatology.

    2 Peter 3:14 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
    Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for
    these things, make evry effort to be found in
    peace without spot or blemish before Him.


    The purpose of any Scriptural eschatology has to be
    to improve the serve of individual elect saints.

    [ December 30, 2005, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mel Miller on another topic:
    //1. Jesus comes with "ALL the Saints". I Th.3:13
    2. Raises all of us on the last day. Jn.6:40
    3. No believer faces God's wrath. I Th.5:9
    4. "Elect gathered above after trib." Mk.13:27
    5. Believers "overcome to the END". Rv.2:26
    6. God's wrath only at 7th Trumpet. Rv.11:18
    7. Trump 7 "appointed time" for Rapture. "
    8. Trump 7 "appointed time" for God's wrath. "
    9. Time ends when it is about to sound. Rv.10:7
    10. Temple opens as last Plague empties. Rv.15:5
    11. No one enters Temple until " " ". Rv.15:8
    12. Seal 7 God's Court of Judgment. Rv.8:1-5
    All above occur "after the great tribulation"//

    Many of these statements are incorect readings of
    the scripture, but i'll deal with that later

    What I want to deal with is the contention that the
    twelve numbered items //All above occur "after
    the great tribulation"//


    //1. Jesus comes with "ALL the Saints". I Th.3:13//
    correct, after the great tribulation.
    However, there is also another coming of Jesus
    in which not all the saints are with Him, for he
    picks up some

    2. //Raises all of us on the last day. Jn.6:40//
    FALSE, in this case 'the last day' is the
    70th week of Daniel which is about 7-years long
    (2 times 3½-years). It is strange to speak of part of
    an event to be 'after' the event it is part of.

    3. //No believer faces God's wrath. I Th.5:9 //
    FALSE and selfcontradictory. Sorry, but the
    'great tribulation' is the wrath of God - we won't
    be suffering the wrath of God cause we won't be
    here during the great tribulation

    4. //"Elect gathered above after trib." Mk.13:27 //
    FALSE. poor reading of the scripture. THe Scripture
    should bring home, not dispair as this interpertation
    of scripture does. We are to 'encourage one another'
    not discourage one another.

    5. //Believers "overcome to the END". Rv.2:26 //
    FALSE. Believers "overcome to the END" in this
    Gentile Age which is before the great tribulation.
    Anyway, most 'after the trib rapturists' are weak on
    Security of the Believer. They have no idea what
    becomes of those who are believers and don't
    "overcome to the END". Basicly the Bible doesn't
    tell what happens to believers who don't
    "overcome to the END". But I know we can trust God.

    6. //God's wrath only at 7th Trumpet. Rv.11:18 //
    7. //Trump 7 "appointed time" for Rapture. "//
    8. //Trump 7 "appointed time" for God's wrath." //
    FALSE. All of these confuse the 7th Trumpet of Revelation
    with the last trumpet of the Gentile Age (1 Thess 4,
    2 Cor 15).

    9. //Time ends when it is about to sound. Rv.10:7 //
    FALSE. This statement does not a gree with Revelation 10:7.
    THis statement tends to reflect the 17th century pre-TV
    TV-evangelists ;) /it is a metaphor, some of the 1800s evangelists
    were as phony as today's TV evalgelists/
    Anyway, they liked to say "then time ends and eternity begins".
    Sorry, bad phrase. Time does not end. This world order may pass,
    this world may pass, but time does not end. Also, eternity future is
    already running; eternity past continues to run.

    10. //Temple opens as last Plague empties. Rv.15:5 //
    TRUE. This is the Temple in heaven, not the temple on earth.

    11. //No one enters Temple until " " ". Rv.15:8 //
    TRUE but meaningless in this context. No body enters the
    heavenly temple until after the great tribulation but heaven
    is full of people (see Revelation 7).

    12. Seal 7 God's Court of Judgment. Rv.8:1-5
    FALSE. sounds more like seal 7 starts the light part
    of the tribulation period.

    Recap: correct events following the great tribulation:

    1. Jesus comes with "ALL the Saints" (instead of just some
    to pick up the others
    10/11 the Temple in heaven opens

    Maybe 3 out of 12 - that is 25% - FLUNK :(
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mel Miller: //There are 250 verses from Rev.6:1 to Rev.20:6.
    IMO, 40 per cent of these verses deal with
    what happens on the 12-Hour Day that Christ
    comes to avenge their blood.//

    12-Hour Day???
    Version, Book, Chapter, verse (or a set thereof)

    [​IMG] I think it is a 8-hour work day [​IMG]
    Jesus aught be able to do it all in one shift.

    My scriptures indicate it will the
    DAY OF THE LORD: the 70th Week of Daniel,
    a 7-year long 'day'. AT the start of the day,
    the Day of the Lord starts with the rapture of the
    Gentile Age born-again redeemed Chrisitan elect saints;
    at the end of the day Jesus comes in power and might
    to avenge the blood of the Marytrs.

    Mel Miller: //According to His own word, He will "raise up
    ALL believers on the last day" . . not just the
    "dead in Christ"! All must depart "from the earth" on the
    same day or His promise is unreal!//

    Yes, this all happens on the DAY OF THE LORD which is
    the day in which our BLessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus
    physically reigns on a phyiscal earth on a physical throne
    in a physical Jerusalem for a physical 1,000 years -
    this is called the Millinnial (1,000 years) Messanic Kingdom.

    So this DAY OF THE LORD starts with the
    SHEEP & GOATS judgement and ends with the GrEAT WHITE THRONE
    JUDGEMENT (sorry, 1 judgment folks, that makes 2 judgements
    on one 'day' [​IMG] )

    BTW, Mel, I beleive the 2 witness are dead 3½-24hour-days
    in THE MIDDLE OF THE TRIBULATION PERIOD. YOur 3½-year trib
    period is way too short. There are two each 3½-year
    periods either side of the death of the Two Witnesses at mid-trib.

    Mel: //[Are there two ENDS of the age?] //

    No, each age has one end.
    But there is more than one age.
    The 7-year tribulation period resembles an age
    (though a short one) so i guess you could even have an end
    to that 'age'.

    When did the Old Testament age end?
    At the birth of Jesus?
    At the crucifixian of Jesus?
    At the Resurrection of Christ?
    At Pentacost?
    I think there was an inter-age between the O.T. age
    and the N.T. age. The O.T. age ended with the Birth of the Savior.
    The N.T.age (AKA: Gentile Age, Chruch Age, Age of Grace, but known
    in the Bible as 'time of the Gentiles') started with the
    arrival of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentacost.

    Mel Miller: //Please explain what is the hope for those who
    are "alive and remain" while the two Witnesses
    taste death for up to 3 1/2 days after having demonstrated
    God's kingdom power for 1260 days.//

    The two Witnesses minister the first half of the 70th week of Daniel.
    So your question is unclear. What is your answer in whatever eschatology
    you have (which is also unlcear).

    BTW, the hope of many Christians in times of great tribulation
    (early 300s especially) was they they might be counted worthy
    of suffering for Christ (there is a verse in Acts) and that
    they suffer a glorious martyrdom and receive a deluxe martyr's
    crown.

    Mel Miller: //Is it your doctrine that there are TWO ENDS
    of the Age; one in which Jesus promises to be
    with us only to the END of the Church Age . .
    and one in which He will "first" separate the tares
    from the wheat? Matt.28:20; Matt.13:30.//

    No,that is not my doctrine. You are mixing your eschatology
    and my eschatology together confusedly. Try figuring out GOd's
    eschatology and GO WITH GOD.

    OldRegular: //According to Scripture there will be a general resurrection
    of all the dead followed by the judgment: ...
    Also according to historic Baptist doctrine there will be
    a general resurrection and judgment as shown in the following paragraphs. ...//

    Ah yes, the old Baptist confessions. Not a one of these
    conflicts with my eschatology as explained here on this board.

    But one question:
    Aren't you looking for these statements to be true?

    According to Scripture there will be ONE AND ONLY ONE general resurrection
    of all the dead followed by ONE AND ONLY ONE judgment.
    Also according to historic Baptist doctrine there will be
    ONE AND ONLY ONE general resurrection
    and ONE AND ONLY ONE judgment as shown in the following paragraphs


    But, of course, you can't prove that, cause it ain't so.

    Debby in Philly: //While all the discussion is intellectually stimulating,
    truth is, we don't REALLY know for sure.//

    Strange thing about the future, it hasn't happened yet.
    The future that has not happened yet cannot be 'known'
    all it can be is 'hopped'.

    Consider: 1 Corr 13:13 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
    Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love.
    But the greatest of these is love.


    Would Paul mention 'faith' and 'hope' in the same sentence if they
    were the same?

    Hebrews 11:1 (HCSB):
    Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for,
    the proof of what is not seen.


    I like to say it this way:
    hope is the bones of faith; faith is hope with it's skin on.
     
  5. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    That is just the thing, it is not clear.
     
  6. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    I have a MDiv from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. If I remember correctly between the 4 NT and Theology professors that I studied under there were 2 Premil and 2 Postmil guys. In our theology classes all sides of the debate were covered.

    I had actually began my transition from a Premil, Pretrib position before I arrived at seminary.

    I thank you for all of your responses, however I still do not see anything that shows me the Premil rapture clearly in the book of Revelation. It is all speculation and jumping through exegetical hoops to arrive at that conclusion.

    I cannot help but think that if this were such a major point as many make it that it would be addressed in the book of Revelation and to all of the churches that Jesus addressed personally.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    PastorSBC1303: //I cannot help but think that if this were such a major point as many make it that it would be addressed in the book of Revelation and to all of the churches that Jesus addressed personally.//

    I'm a professional designer (industrial systems).
    Are you arguing against the requirements or the specifications?
    Recall that the designer of the Book called 'Revelation' is God.
    Don't question His design.
     
  8. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    Not in the least. I am completely confident in God and His Word. And because of that, since He has chosen to not address it in His book on the end times, then I see no reason for me to hold to it.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
  10. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    Bro Ed, again there is nothing in that post that shows why the pretrib rapture is not clearly addressed in Revelation.

    Think about that. In the book that the Lord designed to show the Apostle John and His children a glimpse of the end, He does not address this concept. Is that just a coincident? I think not!

    Anyways, I agree with what Tater said in another thread. God will wrap it up in His way and in His time. And I am completely confident in leaving that in His hands.
     
  11. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Brother Ed,

    You have given no evidence that the Day of the
    Lord is the seven years of Daniel's 70th Seven.

    According to your view, the Day of the Lord
    lasts for 1007 years instead of 1000 years.

    Mel Miller
    Junior Member www.lastday.net
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    PastorSBC1303: //Bro Ed, again there is nothing
    in that post that shows why the pretrib rapture
    is not clearly addressed in Revelation.//

    I gave up on you. I hope Jesus doesn't give up on you.
    I also cannot explain purple to my blind-from-birth friend.

    Mel Miller: //According to your view, the Day of the Lord
    lasts for 1007 years instead of 1000 years.//

    You didn't understand what i said.
    I said there is:
    1. Day of the Lord, 1000 years, 1 Peter 2:3
    2. Day of the Lord, 7 years, Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess 2:2


    It was you added 1,000 and 7 and got 1,007 - but it means
    nothing. You could have added the 1 in '1 peter' and the
    2 in '2 Thess' and you would get '3' - meaningless.
    you could have added the 9 in 'Daniel 9:27' and and
    the second 2 in '2' in 2 Thess 2:2 and gotten a meaningless '11'.

    Ed Edwards,
    Senior Member, Ed's Eschatology and Grill
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mel Miller: //You have given no evidence that the Day of the
    Lord is the seven years of Daniel's 70th Seven.//

    Go figure it out for yourself:


    27 each day of the Lord found:

    Isa 13:6 (HCSB): Wail! For the day of the Lord is near.
    It will come like destruction from the Almighty.

    Isa 13:9 (HCSB): Look, the day of the Lord is coming-
    cruel, with rage and burning anger-
    to make the earth a desolation
    and to destroy the sinners on it.

    La 2:22 (HCSB): You summoned my attackers on every side,
    as if [for] an appointed festival day;
    on the day of the Lord's anger
    no one escaped or survived.
    My enemy has destroyed
    those I nurtured and reared.!zwj!)!zwj! Alef

    Eze 7:19 (HCSB): They will throw their silver into the streets,
    and their gold will seem like something filthy.
    Their silver and gold will be unable to save them
    in the day of the Lord's wrath.
    They will not satisfy their appetites
    or fill their stomachs,
    for these were the stumbling blocks
    that brought about their iniquity.

    Eze 13:5 (HCSB): You did not go up to the gaps or restore the wall around the house of Israel so that it might stand in battle on the day of the Lord.

    Ho 9:5 (HCSB): What will you do on a festival day,
    on the day of the Lord's feast?

    Joe 1:15 (HCSB): Woe because of that day!
    For the day of the Lord is near
    and will come as devastation from the Almighty.

    Joe 2:1 (HCSB): Blow the horn in Zion;
    sound the alarm on My holy mountain!
    Let all the residents of the land tremble,
    for the day of the Lord is coming;
    in fact, it is near-

    Joe 2:11 (HCSB): The Lord raises His voice
    in the presence of His army.
    His camp is very large;
    Those who carry out His command are powerful.
    Indeed, the day of the Lord is terrible and dreadful -
    who can endure it?

    Joe 2:31 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the great and awe&nbhyph;inspiring day of the Lord comes.

    Joe 3:14 (HCSB): Multitudes, multitudes
    in the valley of decision!
    For the day of the Lord is near
    in the valley of decision.

    Am 5:18 (HCSB): Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord!
    What will the day of the Lord be for you?
    It will be darkness and not light.

    Am 5:20 (HCSB): Won't the day of the Lord
    be darkness rather than light,
    even gloom without any brightness in it?

    Ob 1:15 (HCSB): For the day of the Lord is near,
    against all the nations.
    As you have done, so it will be done to you;
    what you deserve will return on your own head.

    Zep 1:7 (HCSB): Be silent in the presence of the Lord God,
    for the day of the Lord is near.
    Indeed, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
    He has consecrated His guests.

    Zep 1:8 (HCSB): On the day of the Lord's sacrifice
    I will punish the officials, the king's sons,
    and all who are dressed in foreign clothing.

    Zep 1:14 (HCSB): The great day of the Lord is near,
    near and rapidly approaching.
    Listen, the day of the Lord-
    there the warrior's cry is bitter.

    Zep 1:18 (HCSB): Their silver and their gold
    will not be able to rescue them
    on the day of the Lord's wrath.
    The whole earth will be consumed
    by the fire of His jealousy.
    For He will make a complete,
    yes, a horrifying end
    of all the inhabitants of the earth.

    Zep 2:2 (HCSB): before the decree takes effect
    and the day passes like chaff,
    before the burning of the Lord's anger overtakes you,
    before the day of the Lord's anger overtakes you.

    Zep 2:3 (HCSB): Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
    who carry out what He commands.
    Seek righteousness, seek humility;
    perhaps you will be concealed
    on the day of the Lord's anger.

    Zec 14:1 (HCSB): A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.

    Mal 4:5 (HCSB): Look, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

    Ac 2:20 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and remarkable day of the Lord comes;

    1Co 5:5 (HCSB): turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

    1Th 5:2 (HCSB): For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

    2Th 2:2 (HCSB): not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

    2Pe 3:10 (HCSB): But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.

    3 each day of Christ found:

    Php 1:6 (HCSB): I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

    Php 1:10 (HCSB): so that you can determine what really matters and can be pure and blameless in the day of Christ,

    Php 2:16 (HCSB): Hold firmly the message of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn't run in vain or labor for nothing.

    3 each day of God found:

    Job 20:28 (HCSB): The possessions in his house will be removed,
    flowing away on the day of God's anger.

    2Pe 3:12 (HCSB): as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be on fire and be dissolved, and the elements will melt with the heat.

    Re 16:14 (HCSB): For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God, the Almighty.

    7 each day of judgment found:

    Mt 10:15 (HCSB): I assure you: It will be more tolerable
    on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

    Mt 11:22 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

    Mt 11:24 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

    Mt 12:36 (HCSB): I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak.

    2Pe 2:9 (HCSB): then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

    2Pe 3:7 (HCSB): But by the same word the present heavens and earth are held in store for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    1Jo 4:17 (HCSB): In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; for we are as He is in this world.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Benjamin, in another topic:
    // ... do you believe the pre-trib doctrine could be dangerous
    by teaching people they will escape tribulation
    and therefore they will not be prepared for the event
    and may be easily deceived into believing
    a lie effecting their salvation?//

    Actually there are very few (and the exceptions teach on TV)
    pretribbers who are "teaching people they will escape tribulation".
    In fact, I even have a writing I post on the BB (Baptist Board)
    from time to time. It is posted below:

    Jesus said:
    Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
    These things I haue spoken vnto you,
    that in me ye might haue peace, in the world ye
    shall haue tribulation
    : but be of good cheare,
    I haue ouercome the world.

    So anybody who teaches from the Bible will tell folks
    that they are going to have tribulation.

    BTW, I'm offended by those who say that false things
    about what I teach. How is it wrong to teach the
    truth I found in the Bible?

    -----------------------------------
    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity,
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom

    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    (AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
    -----------------------------------
     
  15. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    I understand. If I were trying to show something that is not there, I would give up as well. [​IMG]

    Don't you worry about me, Jesus has not given up on me. He holds me in His grace and mercy each day of my life. And I am ready for whatever He brings and however He brings it about. [​IMG]
     
  16. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Brother Ed,

    The execution of God's wrath requires no more
    than one Day during which the sun will darken
    at noon (Amos 8:9) and the light will return
    at twilight. Zech.14:6-7

    On that day Christ comes with all the saints.

    All the wicked will be destroyed on the SAME
    Day Christ is revealed. Luke 17:27-30.

    The armies at Armageddon will perish in one
    hour on "Day One" of the 1000-Year Day of the Lord when Christ comes with all the Saints. Zech.14:1-9; Rev.17:14.

    None of the verses you cite states that the
    Day of the Lord may be equated with the
    70th Seven of Danial as you claim.

    In your view, I repeat, "The Day of the Lord
    lasts for 1007 years INSTEAD of 1000 years".
    2 Pet.3:10.

    Mel Miller Junior Member 13061 www.lasday.net
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The following was posted on a different thread but according to a verbal pretribber was misposted so I will repost the significant parts:

    "According to Scripture there will be a general resurrection of all the dead followed by the judgment:

    John 5;28, 29, KJV
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Also according to historic Baptist doctrine there will be a general resurrection and judgment as shown in the following paragraphs.

    Abstract of Ptinciples


    When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:

    Articles I. thru 18 not posted

    XIX. The Resurrection
    The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

    XX. The Judgment
    God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

    The Second London Confession [1677]


    Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293, Baptist Confessions of Faith by Lumpkin]

    “1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

    2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

    3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”


    Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

    “1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

    2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

    3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”


    The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

    Article XVIII. Of the World to Come [page 367, Lumpkin]

    “We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”"

    Sadly many Baptists have departed from the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints.
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    PastorSBC1303 says:
    But it is to some which is evidenced by some of the posts in this thread. Granted, that all the details are not found in any one book of the Bible.

    All the details of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity are not found in any one Book of the Bible but is a composite teaching of Scripture.

    It also is an important teaching not found in one particular book of the Bible, however, to some it is clear to others it is not.

    That is not to say that those who hold to an incorrect view concerning the Return of Christ (without defining the "correct view") is of the same gravity as the rejection of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.

    HankD
     
  19. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    Hank, the comparison between the trinity and a pretrib rapture is like comparing apples and oranges. It just does not work.

    Is the book of Revelation a book that is sharing with us a glimpse of the end times? And yet in that book a pretrib rapture is not seen? The only way to find it is to read into the fact that the word church is not used for a large portion of the book. That is an argument from silence that no matter how you look at it, is not clear.

    I think it is clear to some because they want it to be clear and because that is what they have always been told is right by Sunday School teachers and pastors. But there is no way around the fact that Revelation does not show it.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It does for me because of the following reason.

    The history of the Church can be viewed as one of an ongoing doctrinal struggle. The canon of Scripture, the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity were early Church struggles, today it is the Second Coming and Bible Versions (among others).

    It seems to me that these modern issues and in particular the details of the Second Coming, are yet to be completely resolved (at least to my satisfaction).

    A Personal note: While I am moderately dispensational in my overall view, I am one of those to whom the details of the "pre-trib rapture" are not 100% clear and I am undecided, I do however promote that view as it is the view of my local Church.

    HankD
     
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