Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

This is the apostles, which won't happen today. Nor is it the gift in operation among the members of a NT local body. No need for you to be confused.

 

You've failed to properly apply, contextualize, and understand this passage in relation to this thread. There are no apostles today, we're talking gift within the local body since Acts. There is in that context no need to require that ALL be healed in a hospital to prove it true. (although I don't believe this gift is in operation today).

 

These "signs and wonders" and sign gifts were given to the apostles specifically. They authenticated them and their message. The apostles died by the end of the first century, and the gifts of the spirit ceased at the same time. You cannot find the same thing being done today. It has ceased. There is not gift of healing going on today.

 

The gift of healing wasn't only to the apostles specifically, so you are again deficient in your explanation. Paul wouldn't have written 1 Corinthians 12:9, 30 &c to a local body describing their gifts as members thereof who were not themselves apostles.

 

Yea Preach but your talking to "Mr Show Me".....Makes you feel like your in Missouri .... oppsey......my bad:laugh::thumbs:

 

Here is context:

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Hebrews 2:3-4)
--They were given primarily to the apostles for authentication.

Furthermore, if they were for today we would see them in operation today. But we don't. Give the evidence. Where is the gift of healing in operation today? Where is your proof?
Or is it you that believes in "name it; claim it" with no evidence.

 

Nice way to bypass the passage I gave you proving the gifts weren't only to the apostles. You're incorrect as I've shown you.

No need to continue the path of "is the gift in operation today", and beg me for "proof" when I've already said I don't believe it is in effect. That's just you pretending there's an argument when there isn't one so you can avoid the proof I've given you, in that, you are incorrect stating the gifts were only Apostolic.

Stay on track, OK? It's not really that hard. I've shown you the gift wasn't only, nor was it specifically an Apostolic only gift. I know it's hard to admit that you're incorrect, and to admit you have been proven incorrect.

No need for your false trail for me to "prove" a gift in existence when I've concisely stated I don't believe it is.

 

I don't know why it is so hard for them to see and admit their errors and to stay on track.

??????

 

EGO & the need to be right!

 

It looks as if you do not grasp the issue.....let me try this

If you believe you spoke in a tongue.....did it come directly from God?
or did it only come out of your mind?

Then you say in another post...we have to check it in the word???
if it is already in the word...we do not need a tongue to repeat it...we CAN READ THE WORD.

Wayne Grudem ....has seriously blundered on his ideas...and is almost universally rejected for this major error.....
This kind of error is serious enough that he is to be avoided....his systematic theology ....has other problems...I personally think it does more harm than good.....
All he did was piggy back on other systematic theologies...put them in modern english.....them ask questions in a compromising fashion...that can be harmful.

 

You are text proofing. There is no Scripture that says that gift of healing is for today. 1Cor.12-14 are three chapters written about spiritual gifts, mostly written about the misuse of the gifts by the Corinthian Church. Notice he doesn't write about these gifts to other churches. This is one of the first epistles written (ca. 55 A.D.). By the time the other epistles were written (8-12 years later) the gifts were already passing out of existence.

What are you talking about. Are you contradicting yourself or arguing for the sake of argument; being contentious for the sake of contentiousness. If so I should take this post to the administration. We have enough contention on this board then to deal with foolishness.

You haven't given any valid proof. The fact that I have ignored what you put forth, doesn't make it valid. Whatever gave you that idea??

It was primarily an apostolic gift which can be shown through Scripture, but not confined to the apostles.

Yes there is a need. If the gift was in existence today, it would be prevalent today. No evidence of the gift today, then it is not operative today. Ergo--it has ceased as the Bible teaches; as history teaches; as our own current events of today teaches.

You don't have the evidence.

 

I Don't Believe in Doctrines, SO...

....I'd have to say, and this is merely my opinion, based on intellectual understandings and Scriptural interpretation (over the years), and personal experience; the gifts were meant to continue into, and through, the end of ages, or until He returns for the church!

This is why I consider myself to be non-denominational, with Baptist inclinations.

I've come to see doctrines as the mere spiritual hypothesis' of mans collective and intellectual understanding of Scriptures. And in all truth, the doctrines of any one particular denomination or faith doesn't necessarily impress me. Nor will it cause a change in my relationship with Jesus as Lord and Savior!

Don't get me wrong...while doctrines are the basic foundations upon which mainline religions are built upon. No one doctrine is necessarily more sound than another. There is always going to be room for error in all doctrines. To hitch y wagon to the one doctrinal interpretation, or another, or many, is going to be based on what best suits our way of belief and life!

Time has taught me well, and I have developed a faith built upon some very sound principles of many different doctrines, and I personally can't see where this way of believing is going to keep me from eternity any more than throwing everything I have into the box of one set doctrinal stand.

This is why I can clearly say, for me, the gifts were meant to go long beyond the time of the Apostles.

What I believe and what you believe is ONLY important if we choose to make it an issue and let it separate us from the fellowship we were meant to have with those who have given their life to Christ and been born-again!

It shouldn't matter if I'm a supporter of Peter, or Paul, or Timothy? The important question is: Do I follow Jesus? And the answer is, not only do I follow Him, I've given my life to Him, followed Him in water baptism, and dedicated myself to spreading the good news of His life, death and resurrection. Is there anything more??? :wavey:

Again, nothing that I said above will keep me from eternity. My name has been written in the Lamb's Book of life,right along side of yours. And that is really all that should matter to any of us in the end! :thumbs:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

Proof-texting? LOL!!!!! I gave you Scriptures proving the gifts weren't only apostolic. Deal with it, you're wrong again and its beginning to look like you're chronically wrong.

What a load of bunk, you're still pretending that I said the gift exists today, when I clearly said it doesn't, yet you still pretend you have a cause to fight after I clearly showed your view is deficient in understanding. And then to top that off you bring in your strawmen.

But you can't stick to the facts and truth here because when we do, well, you're clearly in error, so you keep pretending that you have an issue to argue about by pretending I've said something I haven't. I find this humorous behavior. :laugh:

Here is what you are doing basically and what is happening in essence: :laugh:

I said; "I don't believe the gifts exist today."

Then you say; "Prove that the gifts exist today, you don't have the evidence."

Try staying on track and paying attention? Yes? No? (unless you still need to play "pretend"). :wavey:

 

Neither do I.
This conversation is over. You are arguing for argument's sake. That is being contentious.

 

A careful study into the Word of God would reveal otherwise, particularly in 1Cor.13:8-13.

As one man said: "Salvation (or the winning of souls) is not the most important thing in the Bible, obedience to God is." Put in that context all of God's doctrines become important to us. We are commanded to Study to show ourselves approved; to search the Scriptures; to be able to give to every man an answer; etc. Whether or not specific doctrines impress you is not important. They are important to the Lord. That is why God left His revelation in His book written for us. The more we know it, the more we know about our Lord, and the more we can draw closer to Him. We can only draw closer to the Lord as we find him through the Scriptures. There is a direct correlation between the study of the Scriptures and our relationship with Christ.

Not necessarily so. This particular field of study is currently the devil's playground. The Charismatic movement is one of the fastest growing movements in our age today. It is infected with demon possession, and ungodly error where people have put their experiences as more important than the Word of God. Jesus said "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." In other words beware of the false teaching of the false teachers/false prophets. That exists in abundance today. Jude commanded us: "that we should contend for the faith." We must not only know what you believe, you must know why you believe what you know.

There are many doctrines (such as the importance of baptism) that will not keep you from eternity. But does that make it any less important? Obedience to the will of God is the most important thing.

What reason? That they aren't important??

Should I have fellowship with those that bark like dogs, hiss like snakes, etc., as well as those that believe that speaking in tongues is obligatory for being saved? It is a slippery slope? Where does it end. The AOG, one of the tamest of the groups believe that speaking in tongues is evidence of being baptized in the Spirit; that it is a subsequent blessing to salvation. They also believe that everyone should have it, and if they don't have it they should seek it. If you don't have it you are looked upon as someone who is "less spiritual." Do I fellowship with people that are so deeply in error?
Here is the Biblical teaching on that issue:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)
--Tongues is a divisive issue.

There is much more. There is the matter of fellowship with those who hold to Biblical error; serious Biblical error.

Baptism won't keep you from eternity either. But I believe it is important, as is the Lord's Supper. Why are they so much more important than the gifts of the Holy Spirit. All of God's doctrines are important.

 

DHK has pretty much expressed my own opinion on the issue. But in response to the OP:

1. Essential: "Let all things be done decently and in order."
2. Not essential: Sign gifts. There is "a more excellent way".

 

wow, you two agreeing....have you read ML-J books?

1. Revival
2. Joy Unspeakable

Knowing you, you might be enlightened!

 

You might be suprised how much DHK and myself agree!!!

But no, I have not read the two books you mention, but I have read Grudem's defense of continuationism - did a study of it in college - and if those books are no different than Grudem's, then I'm not interested.

A summary of my studies:

My pentecostal uncle and every other pentecostal I know (getting right to the point): "Speaking in Tongues is true because I've experienced it".

Grudem (after a long-winded psuedo-scriptural lead-in): "Speaking in Tongues is true because people have experienced it".

 

Thanks for your long explanation, and please forgive me if mine was a little too long, but, I wanted to point out that our differences are more set in stone in your heart and mind then they are in mine!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type

 

I have a question for those who believe that the gifts are still in operation today.
Can anyone point to anyone who has been healed or raised from the dead outside the bible that can be clinically and physically verified? By healed I mean just like in the bible. On the spot not several days later and the condition never returns. This must be someone who you know of personally or can show with absolute proof they had the problem and was healed. This must not be in response to prayer, but because someone went to them and healed them on the spot or raised them from the dead. Anyone?
Or someone with the gift of miracles. They would be able to do things like turning water into wine, walking on water, feeding multitudes with very little and so on. Anyone?