1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jordan Kurecki, Mar 11, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,772
    Likes Received:
    97
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Many preachers teach that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches that the sign gifts will cease, the claim is that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scriptures. However I have a hard time seeing how the completed scriptures were what enable Paul to "know even as I also am known". I am beginning to wonder if this interpretation of this passage of scripture is a knee jerk reaction to charismatic doctrine and chaos? I see it as a definite possibility that what the "perfect" is and what Paul means by "then shall I know even as I also am known" as a reference to our condition in glory, or something of that nature. So I have several questions

    1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

    2. Can we know with certainty based on Biblical exegesis that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scripture? or do we just say that because we have heard preachers teach that?

    This was the closest to an acceptable explanation that I could find about vs 12, but I still have trouble and feel like it glosses over the phrase "shall know even as also am known"

    "The word translated as glass (esoptron esoptron) literally refers to
    a mirror. The ancients did not have the technology to make useful mirrors from glass. Rather, they were made from polished metal. Of course, the imagery thereon was not clear, but somewhat fuzzy. The word translated as darkly (ainigma ainigma) is whence the English word enigma derives. Here it has the sense of ‘not clearly,’ or as the Authorized Version renders it, darkly. The idea was of the obtuse imagery of ancient mirrors. The application was to the limited degree of spiritual understanding and knowledge present in the early church ab- sent the New Testament.
    However, the day was coming when they would see “face to face.” His point is simple. Though in spite of God’s gracious gifts to the early church, their understanding and grasp of New Testament truth was like looking into a polished piece of metal as a mirror. The image was there, but not clear. However, the day was not distant when their understanding would be like seeing face to face. He continued, in that day I “shall know even as also I am known.” When the New Testament was completed, their knowledge of things spiritual would be as sharp as seeing each other face to face." -From David Sorenson's Commentary on 1st Corinthians.



    1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there beprophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

    1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,510
    Likes Received:
    1,676
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We will not know as we are known until Christ returns. He is that which is perfect.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,721
    Likes Received:
    3,344
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I can't help but notice you left off verse 13 that proves the passing of the sign gifts.

    How do we know as we are known? By looking into the perfect law of liberty.

    James 1:25 But he that looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continues, being not a hearer that forgets but a doer that works, this man shall be blessed in his doing.
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,721
    Likes Received:
    3,344
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What is a "partial Christ?"

    "When that which is perfect is come, then that which is partial shall be done away."

    According to CNG, both "perfect" and "partial" have to refer to the same thing.

    So, what is a partial Christ?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,390
    Likes Received:
    225
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sign gifts? Spiritual gifts?

    You mean signs of an apostle:

    Acts 2:43
    many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

    II Cor. 12:11-12
    for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

    Heb. 2:3-4
    so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,721
    Likes Received:
    3,344
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Trying to deflect from leaving off verse 13 and ignoring James 1?
     
  7. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,772
    Likes Received:
    97
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A few points

    1. The question is not whether or not sign gifts will cease, but when, have they ceased, or is the ceasing yet off in the future.

    2. As for James 1 I fail to see how that proves anything. When James 1 was written the NT was not even completed.
     
  8. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,772
    Likes Received:
    97
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus is a “that”? I’m pretty sure that NT Greek grammar does not allow for the “that” to be Christ because “that” is in the neuter gender? Or something like that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,721
    Likes Received:
    3,344
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, I know. Which I pointed out. Verse 13 clinches the "when" of their passing.

    James identifies what "that which is perfect" is. He clearly says it is the "word."
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,510
    Likes Received:
    1,676
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That which is perfect and that which is partial do no have to be the same thing. Soooo....I never said anything about a partial Christ. I dont appteciate your accusing me of doing so. Kind of dishonest
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,189
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A problem is that verse 13 doesn’t “clinch(es) the when”.

    1 Corinthians 13:
    12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
    The “that which is perfect” is the time of the millennium.

    It is at that time believers have no problems and struggle to understand all Scriptures, we also understand all prophecy, all mysteries, are totally knowledgeable even about ourselves nothing hidden, no shame, and in total fellowship with The Christ AND each other.

    However, one must not assume some modern Charismatic teaching is a valid portrayal of what Paul is sharing.
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,189
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    James 1:
    19Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: 20For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. 21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
    Does not attend to the Scriptures as a book of writing, but that written upon the heart.

    One should “receive the engrafted (implanted) Word”. It is such a Word implanted that divides soul and Spirit, that saves as James stTes, “which is able to save your souls.”

    The Law of God is Perfect, but cannot make one perfect, it may only “convert the soul,” that is bring a person to the Christ - the perfect one.
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,721
    Likes Received:
    3,344
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Okay. God does not understand the rules of Greek grammar? (Just as you certainly don't.) Is there anything else God is too stupid to understand?
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
  14. poor-in-spirit

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2018
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    11
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Protestants and Charismatics follow the same errors in relation to I Cor 13 as the RCC. They purposely and ignorantly believe Apostle type characters still exist in some more modern form like popery and archbishops and denominational presidents, etc. Some of these groups even refer to their leaders as "apostle". So in mind-boggling error they think a central person is to have oversight of many churches as it was in Acts initially. What is not understood by these false groups is that in Acts, once these churches (that they personally planted) were later confirmed by the same Apostles (and their own disciples), they then became independent churches. They of course can't understand that the Spiritual authority and powers given the Apostles died with them after the completion of God's Perfect Revelation to man and the presence of indwelling Spirit. Not just Apostolic authority but also Apostolic gifts breathed on the Apostles by the Lord personally including all gifts of healings, tongues, prophesies, signs, wonders and miracles. Some of these gifts were passed onto the Apostle's direct disciples also but all ended at the end of the first century once the Book of Revelation was finished in written form.

    All of these early gifts were considered child's play by God once the Perfect combination of His Spirit guiding believers in His Completed Word was come (that which is Perfect) I Cor 13. God has no need for Apostles to provide oversight anymore we have the "perfect" and more "excellent" way now. His Word is complete so there will be no more Revelation/prophesy from Him to anyone since AD96 and all the way up until the Comforter is taken out of the way with His remaining Church members. Nor is there any need for Spiritual gifts, signs, tongues or any other "sight" type early evidences for the unbelievers. The Spirit is here now to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment to come based solely on God's Completed, Written Word.

    Since I Cor 13 and 14 are purposely ignored by these groups, all sorts of nonsense that mocks God and His Word goes on in this age. Man worship like Popery and denominational central offices/presidents (doctrine of the nicolaitans) comes from this purposeful misinterpretation, as does all charismania like dreams and visions and audible voices and near death (see the light) nonsense concocted in the mind that always needs to see a sign or proof of God.

    God clearly puts no man above anyone else in this age (Matt 23). He will speak to no one audibly in this age. All of His revelation to us is already revealed and Perfect being explained by His Spirit.

    Out of ignorance these groups believe that we not only have God's Complete Revelation and God's Holy Spirit poured out over all flesh who convicts, regenerates, seals and indwells.

    but they also redundantly retain the temporary:

    Apostolic authority along with all the gifts clearly designated by God as temporary, IE..."in part" until the Perfect combination of the Spirit and His Word is come. The entire idea of seeking signs in this age is not only unscriptural but also makes a foolish mockery of God and His true Gospel which can only be received in pure faith without sight of any type. In addition, Spiritual growth can only come from true faith and true faith can only come from "hearing His written Word".

    If a person seeks signs long enough, their subconscious minds will give provide them. Aided of course by spicy foods, hormonal imbalances, medications or rem-sleep dreams brought on by anesthesia. The ignorance is in the seeking of such signs. Except the sign of Jonas the prophet of course (Christ's Sacrifice for us).

    I believe false religions share the same misunderstandings of these passages and this is where some of their distinguishing falsehoods come from, whether man-worship (universal church) or extra revelation, signs/miracles in this age. These confusions are all directly related IMO.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    32,155
    Likes Received:
    746
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I hold that passage to be a reference to the Second Coming of Jesus Himself, BUT, also would hold that the signs and wonders gifts passed when the Apostolic Age ceased after Apostle John died, as they had served and done their intended function to start up and preserve the doctrine once and for all delivered unto the Saints!
     
  16. Ziggy

    Ziggy Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    11
    Faith:
    Baptist
    TELEIOS here is better translated "maturity," particularly when in contrast with child/man.
    Cf. Eph 4:13, EIS ANDRA TELEION -- which is clearly not in a context primarily eschatological. Similarly, Col 1:28 in its context.

    Thus, when the church age moves from its infancy to maturity....
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,191
    Likes Received:
    144
    Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    32,155
    Likes Received:
    746
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which should be when the scriptures were completed and in use in the church....
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    5,049
    Likes Received:
    1,118
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exactly! Just as the manna ceased when Israel entered the Promised land, and presumably the shoes not wearing out and the feet not swelling finished at that time also.
     
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,189
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Foolishness must seek a sign. This is why Charisatic thinking runs off the rails.

    The believer who lives by signs and wonders has little truthful foundation of walking by promise and experience of sustaining.

    However, there is a huge assumption made in your post, but little if any Scripture support.

    The evidence of history is that the people God uses all have a sign. For believers, that sign is the Holy Spirit that indwells them. The believer is driven by the Holy Spirit to seek the truth, to allow God’s purpose for them to be lived through them, and to be the servant of the most high. They do not seek a sign, because they are the sign.

    Should the circumstances oblige, the Holy Spirit will use the means necessary to both validate the message of the Scripture and to sustain such in those God chooses to add to His adopted ones. That is God will use the sign as He desires, not as some human determines, but as God wills.

    Where God’s Word is evident, there is little need for any outward sign, for the believer is to walk by faith not by sight, however, where such is not available, the miracle of languages and the proclaiming of The Word of God does occur and has historically been validated by God according to His glory.

    Puffed up are those who would scoff at such accounts, and dangerously inexcusable are those who would assign such occurrences as of Satanic influence. (Luke 12, Matthew 12)

    The enemy of the gospel will always have the exciting yet counterfeit, and this is seen in the folks enticed into some charismatic endorsements and chasing after signs even proclaiming and claiming. Such foolishness is counterfeit and has no place in the life and living of a true believer (those some are believers that are so deceived).

    The true gifts of God are without repentance, and they are used only for His purpose and according to what He determines brings Him glory.

    Should God, in places the Gospel message is not free to be expressed, determine that a certain overt must occur, it is not the believer’s authority to assume that of the Pharisee in making judgment. But to rejoice that God will find other sheep we do not even know about.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...