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Featured Does a Multitude of Modern English Bible Versions Promote a Violation of 1 Cor 1:10

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by JD731, Nov 6, 2023.

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  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    ! Corinthians 10 says this and the context should be considered:

    10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
     
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  2. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously more new Bible translations will have the effect of division rather than unity among people and churches. It is logical and reasonable to believe this is true. No one on these forums that I have seen has ever begun a thread to show evidence that Christians are more united in doctrine since the deluge of new English Bible translations began in America in 1901 with the ASV. There should be some evidence because the reason many give for them is to make the scriptures more understandable because they are presented in modern language and the translators are much more skilled and better equipped.

    Then there is 1 Corinthians 1:10. The command from God is to be unified by speaking the same thing. The implication is that we cannot be unified but divided if we do not. I see all these new modern English translations, paraphrases, and dynamic equivalences as a serious problem that has weakened the churches and divided Christians. People do not know what the word of God is any more and they do not believe they have the words of God because that is what they are told. They have the best ideas of the translators and one might be closer to the truth than the other. I do not think that is what God is looking for in those who worship him. Do you?
     
  3. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    One of first things I learned as a young Christian was that comparing various translations helps one to understand a passage better.

    I suppose you think we should use a translation that has been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. One the church trusted… like the Vulgate.

    Rob
     
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  4. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Think about it. God directs all Christians to speak the same thing and then sanctions 100 and more English translations in 120 years and sows them through the English speaking world. There is enough difference in what they say that they can obtain copyrights on them. What is wrong with God doing this kind of stuff if you think this modern Bible doctrine is his idea?
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The King James Version was a “new” translation at one point.

    The scholars today that are translating are building upon centuries of study of the Biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek, as well as other documents used in those languages (dead languages: they are not spoken today)

    Modern Greek and Hebrew are not the same language as biblical use.

    As mentioned above, use and compare several version, especially those that reference Hebrew and Greek study lexicons.

    peace to you
     
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  6. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am responding to your last sentence in your comments.

    With all due respect, that seems strange counsel in light of the fact that the most popular translation among modern English speaking Christians, the NIV, has had it said about it by some that it is notorious for attempting to westernize the scriptures by their means of translation. It seems like a conflict of philosophies to me.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, multiple English versions do not violate the passage.

    Most Baptist churches do not prescribe a specific translation and various translations has had a positive effect on serious Bible study.

    There are some legalistic churches that seek division regarding the use of musical instruments, women wearing pants, men not wearing a tie, and such. There are some KJVO churches. But churches should never adopt such for the sake of unity.

    If I am seriously studying an ancient text I want as many translations as I can get so that my study will be informed. Scripture is an ancient text.
     
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  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    What is your source for the statement the NIV is the most popular Bible translation among English speaking people?

    If a person is comparing several translations with a solid lexicon of biblical languages, with foundational prayer for guidance from God Holy Spirit, they should get a very good understanding of the passages.

    peace to you
     
    #8 canadyjd, Nov 6, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2023
  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    You veered off track somewhat, JonC. The passage I brought up, 1 Cor 1:10, has a context that will make it very clear that God is not primarily expressing his desire for what his church wears or what music they have or any such as that. He instructs in what they speak and of what mind and judgement they present among themselves until he comes. The idea is that speaking the same thing will bring the unity that God desires and will quench division among them and that following different authorities will bring division.

    Now, commenting on the line I underlined;

    I do not believe there is credible evidence for this, but if there is, I will be forced to re-evaluate God's command in 1 Cor 1.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Let's look at the verse:

    1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    Paul is telling the church in Corinth to be united, same mind, same judgment, without division.

    I believe this is good instruction. A church needs to be united. Division only tears apart a church.

    From the title of the OP I gather you are removing the verse from its context and applying it outside of the church (either to all Christians, that they must be united, or to all churches that there be no divisions).

    But Paul also acknowledged divisions between churches (specifically Gentile and Jewish churches in regards to practice). So we know cannot apply this to different churches being united. And individuals fall within a congregation.


    I am trying to make sense of the title of the thread and the OP.

    The title seems to suggest that all Christians should settle in one translation. If that is the case then all churches should use the NIV (it is the most used translation now).

    But why? My church uses the NASB, the NIV, the NKJV, the ESV, and the KJV. This has not caused division at all.
     
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  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    What is the number one selling Bible translation?


    4 Ministry Truths From the Bestselling Bible Translations List
    1 New International Version
    2 New Living Translation
    3 English Standard Version
    4 King James Version
    5 Christian Standard Bible

    What is the best-selling version of the Bible?


    The New International Version

    The New International Version remains the best-selling translation. Though we don't have market share data, we anecdotally surmise that the NIV is losing market share to the next three translations (ESV, NLT, CSB).Jan 2, 2023

    Is NIV the most popular Bible?


    The NIV is the only English version since the KJV that has come close to becoming the “standard” English version. Yet today, the Bible translation landscape is changing. While the NIV remains the best-selling and most popular English version in the world today, its dominance has waned.
    logos.com

    If God can give one the Holy Spirit he can give one his words. He gives both. If he doesn't we have been duped. The words he gives explains his giving his Holy Spirit to us (he is invisible) and the Holy Spirit teaches us his words. Things God gives are as perfect as he is.
     
  12. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    In their preface to the 1611 KJV, which is a revision of multiple varying Bible translations, its makers themselves argued that "variety of translations is profitable for finding the sense of the Scriptures."

    In their comments to the brethren of England, Scotland, Ireland, etc. in the 1560 edition, the Geneva Bible translators acknowledged that “some translations read after one sort, and some after another, whereas all may serve to good purpose and edification.“

    Baptists David Bernard and Samuel Aaron wisely answered this question or claim in their 1842 book on Bible translation. They wrote: "As to our being 'left without a standard,' through the multiplicity and variety of translations, we have only to say that there can, in the nature of things, be no perfect standard but the Hebrew and Greek originals; these, being written by inspired men, are infallible, while all translations by men uninspired must be more or less imperfect. The number of translations cannot affect the original" (The Faithful Translation, p. 34).

    William Fulke (1538-1589) declared: "For so long as the Greek text remaineth, the diversity of translations cannot bring the truth in uncertainty" (Confutation of the Rhemish Testament, p. 26).
     
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  13. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Paul, the apostle to the gentiles wrote to gentile Christians instructing them how to please God. You would not say his instructions concerning tongues in chapter 14 or conduct at the Lord's table in chapter 11, marriage in chapter 7, or the functioning of the body in chapter 12 etc. is exclusive instruction for the Corinthian church, would you? In chapter 1 it is the division over the authority line and Christ is mentioned among the mortals.
     
  14. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Men are not inspired. Your reasoning is an error.

    Proof:

    Ga 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
    12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

    Peter is the man who a few years earlier had opened the door of faith to the gentiles with the keys he had been given in Matt 16.

    Ac 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

    Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
    8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

    I trust you can see the point.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Paul's instructions apply to all churches. I am saying that they are not somehow binding between different churches or directly applicable as instruction to unchurched Christians.

    Paul was addressing issues within the church in Corinth.

    I am in no way saying Paul's words do not apply to each congregation today. A church should be without division.

    But if we want to have one English translation in the English speaking world today then it has to be the NIV as it is the most common English translation today (and has been for a decade). I just think that is overstepping.


    If course, you have to remember that mine is a Baptist perspective. Baptists do not view Paul as instructing some collection of churches under a "mother church" or governing body. We believe in the autonomy of the local church.

    So while we believe that Paul's words apply, we believe they apply to each church, instructing each individual church how to conduct itself.
     
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The apostles and eye witnesses of the events of which they wrote, the authors of the New Testament, remains to this day the authority of the church. Since the church now has a gentile character, the 13 letters of Paul instructs the church of Jesus Christ, he being distinctly the apostle to the gentiles. For over 18 hundred years there was not a national entity called the nation of Israel or the nation of Judah.. Since 70 AD and the dispersion of the Jews by the Romans those of Jacob have been considered gentiles by God. This is pictured in type by gentile women who were married to Jewish men, like Rebeka, Rahab, Ruth, and five more.

    However, during the apostolic era of the church, there was a Jewish church and Paul in Romans says this about them;

    Ro 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
    16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
    17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
    18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

    Ro 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
    26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

    This passage should convince you that Paul's gentile apostleship was not to individual churches but to gentiles. Now saved men are not Jews or gentiles but the singular church of Jesus Christ.
     
  17. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Truly JD, more division is caused by those that promote a single version.

    The church is made better by diversity of thought.

    Let those that study the ancient languages continue to study their trade. The more scholars trained in the languages, the greater the number of trained individuals that can reach out to unreached people groups.

    Rob
     
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  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    the problem isn't that the translations cause division. That is like saying the fork made someone fat. The division is a result of what is in people's hearts. You are blaming the wrong thing.
     
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  19. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    hmmnn, Rob, are we reading the same 1 Cor 1? If you agree that scripture is our authority for faith and practice, what would be your strongest biblical passage for the modern practice of never ending variations of translations and paraphrases? I would like to read it and see what I have missed.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Each of us, when, for what ever the reasons, disagree, are each of us part of the problem.
     
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