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Featured Does God allow us the free will to choose Him?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Miss E, Jun 20, 2020.

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  1. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    This is a discussion that was originally in the Baptist only section but now is opened to all Christian denominations.

    Do you believe God grants man the ability to choose to follow His son or go their own way? (Which is what free-will means, the ability to choose on your own) Why or why not?
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    he permits lost sinners to have their "free will" , and to keep on rejecting Jesus as lord!
     
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  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Bible, God's Word, tells us that God alone saves sinners.
    I see no verses, in context, that declare humans have the capacity to freely choose to flee the imprisonment of their sins.
    I see passage after passage that tells us we are chosen by God, elected, adopted and predestined.
    The only time freewill is ever spoken in the Bible is in regard to the chosen people of Israel bringing an offering to God in repentance, according to the Mosaic Law prescription.
    The ability to choose options does not mean the will is free from sin or free from God's Sovereign authority.
    What does God say about human ability to save themselves by choosing YHWH as their option?
    Romans 3 is an excellent chapter (in fact all of Romans should be read).

    Romans 3:9-18 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    Romans 3:9-18,21-31 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

    The burden of proof is upon the one who asserts that a person is saved by their "freewill" choice. Prove that assertion in scripture, not by godless prooftexting of sentences out of context, but by Godly study of passages, in context, that declare that humans freely choose God without God choosing them.
     
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  4. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    I would tell to you the same thing to compare scripture with scripture. Romans is not the only book in the bible. So instead of typing out my summary of this person's enlightening position in favor of free will, I'll just post the link here for you all to peruse:

    A Free Will Perspective on Romans 9 and Predestination
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe people can chose to follow God “on their on”, meaning God must be involved.

    Many, perhaps most, who hold to “free will” doctrine will acknowledge God, Holy Spirit is involved in the salvation process. They describe it as conviction, or drawing, or nudging.

    Once you acknowledge God, Holy Spirit is involved, any doctrine of free will is undermined.

    The link mentioned above is a very good summary of the free will position, though it doesn’t accurately present the opposing view.

    peace to you
     
    #5 canadyjd, Jun 20, 2020
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  6. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Can anyone share with me the source/origin of freewill, or as I call it self-will, philosophy/theology that allows spiritually dead people to make any spiritual decision acceptable to God?

    They can/do make spiritual decisions acceptable to Satan.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Read the book of Galatians, it's all about the freewill (legalist) thinkers that Paul calls anathema.
     
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  8. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Yes he does even tho no one can respond in faith without divine enabling.
     
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  9. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    If you can find a verse (in context) that says men have free will unto salvation, I'll consider your point of view.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,
    and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    There it is, it's not anything we do, God alone saves us and your decision has little to do with it. Unless a person was chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-13)

    This link describes both corporate and individual election.

    Corporate Election | Bible.org




    God Bless

     
    #9 Katarina Von Bora, Jun 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  10. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    The question is, how does God’s sovereignty mix with man’s requirement to believe?

    God does this by placing a self imposed limitation upon his sovereignty. By placing into his elect an ability to respond to the gospel, we hear and accept him as savior. He divinely elected us and gave us special enabling that is not given to the non elect. Because we were enabled, we had the ability to choose to believe. That is why the non elect can fully comprehend the gospel but are unable to believe it.
     
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  11. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    We have a fundamental difference of the meaning of freewill.

    Paul, in Galatians, is reprimanding them for tending to fall back under the law - legalism.

    Under the Law, practicing freewill would be deadly!
     
  12. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    The 'not of yourselves' is referring to works, no man can do enough good to outweigh the sin to get into heaven. We are saved by God's grace, not works. (this does not rule out a choice to have faith)

    No one is saying that God doesn't do the saving. But a gift is presented (grace) and we have to either accept the gift or reject it. But without the choice we make to have FAITH in Jesus, God cannot provide his saving power upon our hearts.

    Tell me this. If you believe people don't have a choice to receive or reject God; does that mean the Great Commission is invalid? For, why should we even bother telling people the Gospel if their choice was already made for them by God?

    Why would Jesus command us to tell the Gospel to people, if indeed, people do not have the ability to choose for themselves if they will believe it or not?
     
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  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The 'not of yourselves' is referring to the gift of faith. God made us alive with Christ, God saved us by grace, God gave us the gift of faith, which is not of ourselves, but is the gift of God. Why? So that no one can boast.

    The gift is....FAITH. God doesn't just make a person alive and not gift them with anything. God makes them alive and then gifts them with faith so that they will believe what He has done on their behalf.

    The great commission is a commission to obey. This is similar to when God commissioned Adam and Eve to care for the garden and eat what they wished, but only not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We obey God, we don't go around questioning God's commission. We do what God wills. God uses the words of His ambassadors as the agent by which He causes the dead person to be made alive with Christ.

    Question: Why do you demand that you have control over your salvation instead of marveling in God's amazing grace, which is given to you by no effort of your own?
     
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  14. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    AustinC, after sleeping on it, I understand your position. I was thinking to narrowly about how freewill/self-will can be applied. Thank you.
     
  15. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Practically every scripture in the Bible (both OT and NT) in regards to man's relation to God gives man a CHOICE. I could put a billion different passages here but the one that clearly presents a CHOICE, is in Matthew:

    Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. (Matthew 16:24)

    A CHILD could understand what this means by making the correct assumption in that they must choose to pick up their cross and follow after Jesus or do not. This passage isn't referring to any chosen people (note the bold 'anyone') as you all like to point out, it is giving EVERY MAN/WOMAN an opportunity to CHOOSE whether or not they will follow Jesus as their Lord.

    I don't see how you guys could twist this scripture in any other way to make it mean something that it doesn't mean!
     
  16. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    God did not elect everyone to salvation. Those who he did are not saved until they believe. Because we do not know who is elect we are commanded to evangelize the world. God has ordained the end by including our evangelism as part of the means.
     
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  17. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    Yes... and only the elect will answer.

    Now go back and look up the Greek word for 'anyone'. What is the context? Who is Jesus talking to?
     
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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    And I’m sure Satan is greatly appreciative! :Devilish:Laugh
     
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the first mention of “free will” is is found in the 2nd lie of Satan in Genesis.

    First, he told Eve she wouldn’t surely die, and then he told her that if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, she would be “like God” knowing good and evil.

    Implicit in the lie is that to be “like God” with reference to knowing good and evil, she would no longer need God when choosing the good and rejecting the evil.

    That is essentially the position of those who hold to the free will position today. They don’t believe they need God to chose what is good. They believe they have everything they need within themselves.

    peace to you
     
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  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This is hyperbole and has nothing to do with salvation.
    No one has denied that humans can choose within the capacity God gives them to choose (This, however, is not free will). What has been argued is that people who are dead in their trespasses and sins do not have the capacity to make themselves alive. Ephesians 2:1-9 has proven this as well as multiple other passages.

    Again, this is hyperbole.

    Were these Jesus disciples? Did he choose his 12 disciples or did they choose him?

    The passage is clearly for the elect. Please read the entire thing. Matthew 16:24-28

    Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

    Do you imagine that this entire passage is given to the unsaved?

    Unfortunately, you are thinking like a child and thus understand scripture like a child.

    This passage is for Jesus chosen disciples. (Or do you ignore the fact that Jesus chose each of his disciples, including the disciple that would betray him. That, by the way, is Sovereignty.)

    I have just shown you that this passage is specifically being spoken to the disciples whom Jesus chose.
    Face it. Jesus chose you before you ever responded to him.

    I don't see how you could miss the fact that Jesus chose his disciples before they ever responded to him.

    I once held to freewill. I read the Bible and it became clear that I was wrong.

    There came a time when I no longer needed to be fed milk, but solid food.
     
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