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Featured Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - Part 2

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by AustinC, Jul 23, 2020.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 20:1-15 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denariusa day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’

    Who chose what?

    Notice the owner of the vineyard chooses the workers and chooses what to pay them. Also, notice that the owner asks a very important question, Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?
     
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  2. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I never looked at that passage as supporting God choosing for salvation.

    I’ll have to think about it

    peace to you
     
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  4. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Member

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    What came first? Chicken or the egg?


    It is quite hard to determine exactly what came first, because we do not know the beginning of both, and both of them are depend on one another for its existence.


    But we are know exactly that human race came from GOD, and we certainly do not know the beginning of GOD.


    As much as it may be difficult to comprehend, GOD has no beginning, and so, conclusion can be made that He is the First, and if He is the First, this means He certainly chose us to be His product of creation, to be precise, creation of faith, devotion, service, and worship.
     
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  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 15:12-14 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides.And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    You forgot one created for Salvation... Jesus Christ 100%... He stood in our room and stead and did what we could NEVER do and appeased an offended God on our behalf... That's what I've been telling everyone since I've been here... You my dear friend, seeking Christ, have found the true meaning of Sovereign Grace... Hold on to it, others will tell you are wrong... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Btw... The chicken came first, you need a full grown chicken to get an egg!
     
    #6 tyndale1946, Jul 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    God freely chooses how he saves not who ( individuals to be saved ) . He Chooses Jews . He chooses Gentiles . He chooses some for a purpose . Thats it simple. No one is chosen to be saved however ,no matter how many proof texts you image allude to this gnostic idea .
     
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  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    predestined to BE conformed ..We are not conformed at conversion.
     
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  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Those that learned of the Father are the ones that were planted.
     
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  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The vineyard owner chose whom he wanted. The workers had to wait to be chosen.
    We still see this in third world countries. When I spent a few weeks on a project in the Dominican Republic, I saw this play out as men would stand across the street from a construction project, just hoping the foreman would walk over and choose them to work that day.
    God does the choosing and the Apostles tell us this when they address their readers as "chosen" or "elect."
     
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  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Actually, God throws the seed and the seed that is not thrown in the good soil is rooted up.
    So...God chooses to throw some seed on soils that will not produce any fruit. Does that make you mad, regarding God's choice?

    Matthew 13:3-23 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears,let him hear.” Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. “Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
     
  12. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Wrong again. Look at the parable of the great supper:

    The Parable of the Great Banquet

    15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

    16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

    18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

    19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

    20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

    21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’

    22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

    23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”

    So everyone is invited to come into the kingdom of God you see? We have to either choose to go or to stay behind. That is a CHOICE we have to make.
     
  13. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    So you're saying God chooses where to throw the seeds, okay, fine. But the seeds that prosper and the seeds that die are describing a man's choice he makes, based on the influences around them.
     
  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    what you have imagined is that God chooses before people exist. Notice in your analogy these people are living and breathing .
     
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  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    depends on the soil here doesnt it ? I wouldn't go looking in parables for your key doctrines .
     
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  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Not at all.
    God places the seed and provides the type of soil. A dead seed then becomes alive.
    The prospering of that growing seed is affected by many variables. The grower determines whether to keep the plant growing or remove the plant.
    Our growth is in response to what the caretaker has chosen to do.
     
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  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Of course we don't use a parable for key doctrine. They are supplemental since God does not contradict himself.
    You have seen the passages provided from John 6, John 10, John 17, Romans 3, Romans 8, Romans 9, Galatians 3, Ephesians 1 and 2, as well as many more. These all point to God's authoritative choosing of his children, which he redeems.

    These parables simply reinforce the doctrine of election.
     
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  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    And yet not one of those verses has any thing to do with Calvernism. Thats why no one outside of calvarminism reads into these texts the same . What calvernism does is it starts off with the faulty view of total depravity . Once this has taken hold its very difficult to see your way back . Its like navigation . One degree out your way off course , and by the time you've swallowed U.L.I.P that's it the mind is set . I managed to get out in time fortunately. Once you see how off calvernism and Arminism is ,it will shock you . You.ll wonder how you ever were fooled .
     
    #18 Barry Johnson, Jul 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
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  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 3:11, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

    I John 4:19, "We love Him, because He first loved us."
     
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  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Well when we look at the Parables in the Gospel s there mainy about Israel .
     
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