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Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Miss E, Jul 21, 2020.

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  1. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    I believe God knows (not chose) what a man will choose, but in the end, God has given man the free will choice to choose to follow/worship God or not. Other-wise, God is a God who forces man to love Him, and so, if He did choose us before time, selecting the few that will be saved, then really, God is an unjust God for not allowing a human the free will choice to choose and believe upon His son to be saved.

    It's like having a life guard throw out a life raft to a drowning man (drowning man = man who is in sin and needs help), the man can choose to make the effort (effort = having faith in Jesus) and to grab hold of the raft or to refuse the help and drown and die. This is how God works, He offers the life raft (life raft = gift of salvation) and we, the drowning men/women have to make the conscious, free-will decision in our hearts and minds to choose to be saved by God.

    This does NOT take away the glory and power that God has and will always have. This depicts a merciful, just and righteous God who gives ALL (Jews and Gentiles) a chance to be saved. But the saving is a two way thing, God offers the Way to salvation (His Son Jesus Christ) and man has to receive Jesus into their lives before they can be born again and be saved unto life ever-lasting.
     
  2. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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  3. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Is God just hoping that someone might embrace Christ without surety?

    Or

    Does God rule His creation in wisdom, power and love?
     
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  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    The issue is that man cannot naturally love God.

    Thats what the word mercy means-until God does something to us or for us

    That something is called the new birth or regeneration. When our hearts are changed by this man always responds in faith. Its like a wakeup call to the individual. Wr realize how wicked and sinful we are and flee to Christ in faith
     
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  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    A better analogy is the woman is dead, floating on the bottom of the lake with all the other dead people. God choses her and lifts her up, breathes life into her body, convinces her of the truth of her deadness and need for Jesus. She responds, as does everyone else God choses to pull out of the lake, with faith in Jesus for salvation. God Holy Spirit indwelling permanently in this life.

    There is no free will, only human will that is enslaved by sin and unable to respond to the gospel unless God first intervenes.

    You stated in another post that you believe God Holy Spirit intervenes by “nudging” the person to accept Christ.

    Once you acknowledge the necessity of Holy Spirit intervention in the salvation process, the doctrine of “free will” is undermined and disproved, imo.

    peace to you
     
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Or that God throws the life preserver around the person Himself, and pulls them into safety!
     
  7. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Many misquote the first part of this verse as referring to initial salvation: you did not choose Me but I chose you and appointed you.. But these words were spoken to men who had already believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were being chosen and appointed to produce good and lasting fruit - to the praise of God the Father.

    The Lord Jesus was only hours away from His crucifixion when He spoke these words to His eleven disciples. They were not chosen to receive salvation for they were already believers in Christ. These men were chosen to bear fruit that would remain. They had just learned that Christ was the true Vine, the Father was the husbandman and they were simply branches, that were to abide in the Vine - in order to be fruitful. Indeed their position in Christ would enable them to ask whatever they would of the Father.. in line with the will and character of Christ, and He would grant it. The Lord Jesus was not choosing these men from the sea of unsaved humanity to salvation and eternal life. He was appointing those who had already believed on His name to bear much fruit.

    Judas, who had been 'chosen' years before as one of Christ's 12 disciples.. had heard the truth of the glorious gospel of Christ, but did not mix the gospel he heard with faith and had already left to betray his Master. Like Judas the eleven had also been called to follow Jesus many years earlier - but they had heard the same gospel.. and had mixed faith with the truth. These men were already saved disciples of Christ when he said this to them..... you did not choose Me but I chose you and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

    They were chosen by Him, and appointed to bear lasting fruit. They were to become His witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the earth for they were to be founder members of Christ's Body, which is the Church.

    Christ was soon to leave His little flock and they were to carry on the work that He had started. They were chosen and appointed to spread of the good news of the glorious gospel of Christ to a lost and dying world. Certainly the foundations of Church age doctrine were laid by God's chosen apostles and prophets as recorded in the Scriptures, but all of us who have been born again by grace through faith in Christ are exhorted to abide in Christ and all of us have been given a responsibility of advancing the glorious gospel of God.. in the place where He has appointed us.

    In Proverbs we are told that: the fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that wins souls is wise. Paul outlines the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 and reminds us in Ephesians that the fruit of the spirit is, in all goodness, righteousness, and truth - and we are called to go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain.

    May we abide in Christ and He is us day by day so that in His sufficient strength we may bear much fruit to the praise and glory of God - for when we are living in spirit and truth we not only are fruitful to His praise and glory but will be guided by His Holy Spirit to pray into His will and character.

    Source: What Does John 15:16 Mean?

    Furthermore, Jesus was speaking DIRECTLY TO HIS DISCIPLES, whom yes, He did choose out of all other men to be His trusted 12, but God does not choose who is saved. Context please next time.
     
  8. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, He was speaking directly to His disciples.

    Again, please see above comments

    Let the record show that I never said that He was not speaking to His disciples

    BTW maam, you can find anything to support anything you wish on the internet.
     
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  9. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Yet another way to dress up the false doctrine that God forces people to love Him, thus making God out to be a dictator. I'm not saying this to be mean, but I am trying to get you to see how your false belief paints our saviour. You turn men into robots who have to be 'turned on' in order to accept Jesus' grace, whom, according to you, Jesus picks and chooses whom He likes to be saved.

    So if that were the case, why wouldn't God choose to save everyone if He is a loving creator and wishes none to perish? Why didn't he choose to save everyone? Hm?

    Look at 2 Peter 3:9 :

    The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Another translation reads like this:

    The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent.


    So if God says He wants EVERYONE TO REPENT. That means that man must make the conscious effort to turn away from their sins and trust in Jesus.

    You deny this very scriptural truth?
     
  10. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Okay? And? YOu still say it applies to men who were not saved prior and now have to be chosen by God to be saved? No, the disciples, as the author says, were saved prior, Jesus was appointing them as the disciples to start the Christian church. THAT was what he was choosing them for. Read my post fully before you come back with a reply that has no further support for your one line of scripture you posted, OUT OF CONTEXT

    I pick articles that show the truth. It's not my fault you don't like being pointed to the truth that contradicts your false belief. :)
     
  11. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    We will have to agree that Jesus Christ saves to the uttermost
     
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  12. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    You are failing to provide ANY OTHER SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR YOUR FALSE BELIEF other than that one verse that was EXPLICITLY taken out of context. So you are saying you do NOT believe that John 15:16 was referring to Jesus' disciples and His disciples alone, in regards to them being chosen to be appointed to start the early church? But you ARE saying that it was a verse that supports your false claim that God chooses people before time who will be saved or who won't?

    :Thumbsdown
     
  13. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Maam. I was the most anti Calvinist ever at one point. I work a secular job, amongst other responsibilities, so most of the time, my ability to dialogue is extremely limited

    You can castigate the Doctrine of Election all you desire; however, its truth is eternal.

    Using a concordance look up the words elect and election in Bible

    I am trying to learn how to let things be under certain circumstances and this is one of those times

    Historically, Baptists have a very long history w the Doctrines of Grace.

    Grace and peace
    Rom 5:1
     
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  14. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    See you using all these terms/titles for things other than saying I trust in the BIBLE or WORD OF GOD lets me know how deceived and blind you really are.

    I want scriptural back up of your false claims that God chooses, and man doesn't. You have failed to provide me with any which leads me to believe you have none that you can biblically support. Or you're just too lazy to debate. Which is what this thread is intended for.

    BTW. I might have grown up Southern Baptist, but I don't believe like every 'traditional' Baptist believes, I fall on teh Word of God, plus, my pastor doesn't believe in predestination. And he's a preacher of a Baptist church, If anything, I am an evangelical christian. I just want people to know the truth of the Gospel and don't feel like God cheated them for not picking them (which your predestination garbage EXPLICITLY boils down to) but you guys don't want to admit that is what you're calling it because then it makes your doctrine sound terrible. Which it is, You just dress it up with all your fancy words and out of context scripture.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God doesn't give all person's a chance to choose Him. Person's living without knowledge of Jesus or his atoning sacrifice can never choose God. People without the cognitive ability to choose can never have the capacity to be saved.

    Only those who have wisely looked at all the data at their disposal and have concluded that the God of Israel is the god, from a pantheon of other gods, that should be picked will be saved. All the burden of heaven or hell resides entirely upon the choice of the individual and the saying of a sinners prayer just before death takes place.

    That view seems completely demeaning to God and entirely self glorifying.
     
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  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    We choose to respond to the Gospel. There is no need for pre or irresistible grace as we did not lose the ability to respond positively to Gods revalation.
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I asked you before and you never answered, but I’ll try again.

    You said HolySpirit must “nudge” people to believe, acknowledging the necessity of Gods intervention in the salvation process.

    You acknowledged God is all knowing and all powerful.

    So, if God knows exactly how much intervention is necessary for someone to come to faith, why would Holy Spirit not use enough to bring someone to faith?

    peace to you
     
  18. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    And I'll answer you with a question. Why would you believe God forces Himself or His Holy Spirit to nudge/force someone enough to choose Him without making God seem like an abusive/controlling dictator?

    Opinions/views change. I do not believe upon what I said before as I was misled into believing the holy spirit acts in that way. The Holy Spirit convicts an unsaved person, and it doesn't matter how many times He convicts us, the person still has to make the decision to decide.
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Left to himself and his "free will:" the sinner always answers no way!
     
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  20. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Wrong, I corrected a former belief that I realized was wrong and against scripture. And let me ask you this Yeshua? Did God make you post that unnecessary comment or did you and your non-existent free-will (according to you) have you to make this comment?
     
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