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Featured Does God Control Sin?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 8, 2024.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not believe that we can explain away Scripture so easily. And that explanation calls into question Jesus' honesty.

    He prayed that if there was a way that the cup pass, but not His will but the will of His Father.

    There is no indication the prayer was a type of parable. He had already taught us to pray. And here He was praying in earnest.

    Your post is an example of what I was talking about earlier. We can, of course, nullify any passage if we choose our understanding. But to take God's Word over our understanding is, IMHO, a necessary step towards any wisdom.

    Scripture says Jesus is empathetic to us because He was tempted in all points as is common to man. Scripture says Jesus prayed that the cup pass, but submitted to the will of His Father.

    We should not reason away those passages simply because they will not fit into the philosophical boxes of our own design.

    You rightly challenge the Reformed for doing so, but you are doing the same thing. Start with Scripture, and stay there.
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 12.2 says

    looking only at Jesus, the originator and perfecter of the faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

    It is clear that Jesus Came for Dying for the world on the cross, as it is clear here.

    Jesus was fully human on earth, as He had a human nature, as well as His Divine Nature. This means 2 wills, the human and the Divine. Both worked perfectly in the One Person, The God-Man

    Scripture says that Jesus went to the cross with JOY, so how can He "shrink" from this very thing in the garden? Surely Jesus is not confused, or wanted "to give up"?
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Heb 1:2 YLT in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

    What, ages? What of the following mentioned age?

    Eph 6:11,12 put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

    Is, "this age," and sin relative one to another?

    2 Cor 4:6 because God who said, Out of darkness light to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    Out of what, "darkness"? The darkness of this age? When did this, "age," begin?

    From 2 Cor 4:4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving,

    What, "age"?

    Was the god of this age, the god of this age when, "the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep"?

    What about sin?

    1 John 3:8 YLT he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

    ? When, "the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep," what was the Son of God going to be manifested as?
     
    #83 percho, Feb 11, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2024
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    In what way did God "control" what Ravi Zacharias, and many others like him, did?
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not saying that Jesus wanted to give up or that He didn't come to redeem man.

    But I am saying that Jesus desired the cup be removed provided the Father was willing.

    You are trying to reason away Scripture.

    And you have complained about Reformed people doing the same.


    God's Word stands, even when it does not fit into our theological boxes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    What you are saying is that there was a conflict between Jesus Christ and the Father. This is not what the passage means

    I don't mind discussing this with you but we need to on a different thread

    God bless
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    For the record, I believe that we are privy to Jesus' prayer - that if the Father is willing the cup pass, but His will be done - because this is an example to follow.

    Jesus did not want to suffer. Why? Because He is man. But He submitted the desire of the flesh to God's will.

    That is how we should live.


    Another interesting concept (something to think about) in dealing with Jesus' temptations of the flesh is the cross itself.

    Those who say Jesus could not have sinned in that He lacked the ability rather than He actively submitted the will of the flesh cannot present Jesus as willingly dying for us. The reason is they hold He had no choice. He could no more have stepped down from the cross than a pig could fly.

    I believe this is dangerous ground.

    We have to accept that Jesus was tempted in all points common to man not only in order to have an empathetic Savior but to have a human Savior. Jesus was not less than God in terms of His divinity BUT He was not more than man in terms of His humanity.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, I am not. That is what you are using to reason away Scripture.

    What I am saying is that Jesus is the Son of Man. The conflict is between the desires of the flesh and the desires of the Spirit.

    Having desires of the flesh is not evil or sin. Jesus was truly man. The Word was really made flesh. But He is also God.

    There is a conflict within man. That conflict is the flesh versus the Spirit. Jesus submitted the will of the flesh to the will of the Father.


    The idea that Jesus desired to be beaten, desired to be nailed to the cross, desired the suffering, is contrary to Scripture. But He did desire to do the will of the Father.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews says that Jesus saw it A JOY to suffer and go to the cross for our redemption
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. That is true. We also see suffering for Christ a joy. At the same time the desire of the flesh is not to suffer.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    So you have finally answered the question, that was not so hard was it. Now can you accept the logical outcome of what you said?

    How can you deny that the sovereign God has given LFW to man?

    But if your sovereign God determines all things then you are actually denying LFW.

    You have said that God is the Author / originator of sin thus removing all responsibility for sin from man.
     
    #92 Silverhair, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    God holds man accountable for sin he does
     
  14. OnlyaSinner

    OnlyaSinner Well-Known Member
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    I think that it's impossible for us to fully understand Jesus' thinking at that time. However, it seems more appropriate to think that the "joy set before him" was 1. obedience to the Father's will and, 2. the coming resurrection, ascension and return to His heavenly glory and His role as Savior and Advocate for sinful humanity.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think of martyrs who counted it joy to suffer for Christ. I'm sure their will of the flesh would be not to suffer, but they set their minds on the Spirit.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    NOPE.

    The KJV translators were not WRONG
    and the KJV translators were not VERY WRONG.

    God Created the First Angel, Lucifer.

    That's what God did.

    God is the First Cause of The First Angel, Lucifer, having been Created.

    That was not the end of the story.

    Lucifer fell into a state of sin against God.

    Lucifer, as the First Evil Fallen Angel
    then became the foremost practitioner and proponent of sin.

    Sin is evil. Like making false charges against translators of the KJV.

    You need to let us know who it is you are sources
    for your non-existent arguments to go about seeking
    whatever element of the KJV you may devour next,
    so that we can talk to them.

    "Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh."

    Just kidding, man. Just kidding.

    I don't mean it. I take it back. I take it back.

    LOOK!: in his Commenting and Commentaries
    by Charles H. Spurgeon, said,

    "I have used a degree of pleasantry
    in my remarks
    on the Commentaries,
    for a catalogue is a dry affair, and,
    as much for my own sake as for that of my readers,
    I have indulged the mirthful vein here and there.

    "For this I hope I shall escape censure,
    even if I do not win commendation."


    Then, there is "evil".

    There happens to be a contrast between "peace" and "evil".

    (Alan's notes in bold blue; Isaiah 45 Gill's Exposition)

    "I make peace, and create evil";

    God makes "peace between God and men...made by Christ,
    who is God over all"; The "Spiritual peace of conscience comes from God,
    through Christ, by the Spirit;

    "Eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death;
    God makes "Peace among the saints themselves here,
    and with the men of the world;
    Peace in churches, and in the world,

    "God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind,"

    What God has Created also involves that
    "which this word includes: "evil" is also from him;

    God isn't said to Craete "the evil of sin";
    this is not to be found among the creatures God made;

    The evil of sin originated in Lucifer AFTER HE WAS CREATED
    AND THEN CHOSE TO SIN HIMSELF,

    and EVIL, OF COURSE,
    "is of men,
    though" the evil of sin was "suffered by the Lord,
    and OVERRULED by Him for good:

    But what is spoken of here, by God is "the evil of punishment for sin,
    God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword,
    or war, which latter may more especially be intended,

    "as it is opposed to peace" (the contrast);

    The evil of punishment for sin,
    God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts,
    and the sword, or war,
    "usually is the effect of sin;
    may be sometimes lawfully engaged in;
    whether on a good or bad foundation
    is permitted by God (by negative determination);

    "moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities,
    come under this Name, and are of God;

    WHERE SIN IS; GOD HAS AN JUST REWARD FOR IT.

    WE REAP WHAT WE SOW. AND SOMETIMES JUST SUFFER AS JOB.


    see:

    "But he said unto her,
    "Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh.

    "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God,
    and shall we not receive evil?

    "In all this did not Job sin with his lips."
    Job 2:10.


    Although, what Job suffered
    is not to be said to have been caused by him,

    the "evil" he received was a consequence
    of being in a world cursed with the presence of sin

    and under "the god of this world", Satan, the original evil sinner
    and Satan's evil influence
    that he had received permission from God to inflict.


    YEP. NOPE.

    NOPE.

    NOPE. NOT MORALLY.

    NOPE. NOT MORALLY.

    NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. NOPE.

    Or, does He (negatively) “determine” to not prevent sin against Him?

    God can do anything
    that He has not self-imposed as a self-restriction (lie, etc.)

    NOPE. NOT MORAL FREE WILL.

    Their choice was a fulfillment of God's Prophecy to them.

    In the Garden of Eden, without sin, Adam and Eve had a Moral Free Will
    and they chose to exercise it.

    Lost souls, today, have no Garden of Eden restored, where they have,
    or are given, a Free Moral Choice to choose or not choose God, for example,
    to to choose "The Tree of Life", if you will.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    do you believe that the KJV is directly Inspired by God the Holy Spirit?
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    BEAUTIFULLY SAID.

    SAID BEAUTIFULLY.


    Here's a nice secondary source material Late-Night Snack
    c&ped, worthy of thinking about;

    Predestination and the Saint’s Perseverance
    STATED AND DEFENDED.
    by P. H. Mell
    DEFENDER OF THE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS


    "It would be a sufficient defense of Predestination against our author, to show that, notwithstanding his professions, he does not attack it at all; but, as he seems to look upon his arguments with much complacency and the task is to us not destitute of entertainment, we waive this method of defense, and engage to ramble about with him, and to sustain any Calvinistic doctrines he may have attacked, whether designedly or by mistake.

    "As we essay to answer Mr. Reneau, we must meet him where he is,
    since we cannot find him where he ought to be."


    "Before doing so, however, we see it proper to state the much-abused doctrine of Predestination. We are the more inclined to do so, as we have reason to believe that our author is not the only one who entertains confused notions in regard to it.

    "Predestination is that eternal, most wise, and immutable decree of God, whereby he did, form before all time, determined and ordain to create, dispose of, and direct to some particular end, every person and thing to which he has given, or is yet to give, being; and to make the whole creation subservient to, and declarative of, his own glory."

    "The Lord hath made all things for himself:
    yea, even the wicked for the day of evil"
    (Prov. 16:4)—Zanchius

    "The doctrine, as we think, necessarily grows out of the character of God, and his connection with the universe as its creator, upholder, and governor.

    "The following series of propositions, analytically disposed, contains, as we conceive, both the statement and the proof of it:

    "1. This earth was created by God, and, consequently, there was a period when it began to exist.

    "2. God created it not of necessity, or from impulse, but according to the good pleasure of His will, and as the result of a settled purpose entertained from eternity.

    "3. As an infinitely wise and reasonable being, he had some ultimate object, well-defined, and specific, which he proposed to attain by its creation (Prov. 16:4; Rom. 11:36; Rev. 4:11).

    "4. Possessing infinite knowledge, he knew, by intuition not only all things that have existed, and shall exist, but all things possible—"all possible causes, and all their possible effects"(Ps. 147:5;1 Sam. 23:11,12; Matthew 11:21, 23).

    "Therefore, out of an endless diversity of worlds comprehended in the divine knowledge as possible, he selected such a one as this—composed as it is, and peopled as it is,—as the most suitable means for the accomplishment of his purpose: and decreed that it should exist (Col. 1:16).

    "5. That this ultimate object might be attained, and the end infallibly secured, he ordained, with unerring certainty, all the means necessary, both in the world of matter and in the world of mind.

    "He not only fixed, from eternity, all the forms, positions, relations, and motions of matter, even to the numbering of the hairs of our heads, and deciding when a sparrow should fall—in directing the motions of the particles of dust in the atmosphere, (Isa. 40:12)
    and ordaining when the sun should shine, (Job 9:7)
    and when the wind should blow, (Ps. 135:7),

    "but he "fixed from eternity all the circumstances in the life of every individual or mankind and all the particulars which will compose the history of the human race from its commencement to its close."

    "6. God’s foreknowledge relates to those things that should occur in time; and he foreknew, therefore, that those would occur rather than the other innumerable things that were possible because he had decreed that they, and not others, should exist. (Eph. 1:11; Acts 15:18; Ps. 115:6; Acts 17:26).

    "7. The world, therefore, in all its physical and moral details, is just as God designed it to be—the entrance of moral evil itself is not excepted. He did not err in his plan, therefore evil did not enter unexpectedly to him—he has not been frustrated in his purpose, therefore it did not enter in spite of him. And this too is in perfect consistency with the declaration of scripture, that God is not the author of sin.

    "1. God is not only the creator but the upholder of all things (Heb. 1:3).

    "In him we live, and move, and have our being. He not only bestowed upon men their faculties, but He gave them the ability to use them. He preserves those powers when they are employed in opposition to him, no less than when they are employed in his service.

    "2. This he does not from a choice of evils, i.e. not because he is compelled, by the force of circumstances, which he cannot control, to take this as an evil rather than some other that is greater, for, possessing almighty power, he might have paralyzed those faculties, or prevented their abuse by changing the hearts of their owners.

    "3. Possessing infallible prescience, he foresaw all the instances in which ungodly men would sin against him; and, permitting it in time, he determined to permit it from all eternity, and decreeing from eternity to permit it, it entered into his plan, and composed a part of the purpose which he entertained before the world was.

    "1. God, as the governor of the world, administers all things according to his sovereign pleasure. He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

    "2. "He did not merely decree that general laws should be established for the government of the world, but he settled the application of those laws to all particular cases." Our days are numbered, and so are the hairs of our heads. His providence takes cognizance of and controls everything however minute (Ps. 135:6; Acts 17:25,26,28; Matthew 6:26,30, etc.). "It upholds, directs, disposes, and governs all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least."

    "3. Now, as known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world, and, as he is immutable in his nature, it follows that what he does in time he determined to do from eternity—that his providence is but the enforcement of those laws and the revealment of those plans, which existed before the world was. Finally, it follows that "whatever occurs in time was fore-ordained before the beginning of time."
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    But for God to be just He must only hold them responsible for sin that they chose to do, in other words they have the ability not to sin. That requires that man have a LFW.
     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I'll leave that for others to think that they believe that.

    Their heart knows better.

    I happen to believe that we have a believable Bible
    that resists every effort to assume it is just a bogus bunch of lies.

    I'll leave that to the tortuous and brutal slaughters of God's Words.

    The Original Autographs were Miraculously Inspired, Directly,
    and The Lord's copies of The Bible we have today
    were Providentially Preserved, and provided with His Words for us
    within His limits and boundaries,
    thus are a Sufficient Rule for all Faith and Practice,
    in keeping with Baptist Confessions of Faith,

    in no different a procedure than;
    "When He gave to the sea His Decree,
    that the waters should not pass His Commandment:
    when He Appointed the foundations of the earth:"
    Proverbs 8:29.

    The following translations still held
    to the Bible Doctrines of The Inspiration of Scripture,
    The Preservation of Scripture,
    and The Doctrine of Contending for the Faith.

    English translations from the Textus Receptus.


    And, before you ask, do I believe poorly initiated, poorly planned,
    poorly sourced, poorly selected translators, poor translation philosophies,
    poor publishing and review committees and poor publishers
    could result in a pristine, PREEMINENT glowing example, of God's Word,
    unless God did Himself Directly Inspire those efforts, despite them?

    I let you keep guessing on that.
     
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