1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Was Jesus truly flesh (with desires of the flesh)?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Feb 12, 2024.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,103
    Likes Received:
    3,535
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Luke 22:41–44 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.


    Did Jesus ask God that if possible to remove the cup and submit His will to the will of the Father?

    My answer is yes. Jesus did not desire to suffer, to be nailed to a cross, and die. But He did desire to do the will of the Father.

    This passage demonstrates the struggle of the flesh. Scripture tells us that Jesus is human, that Jesus experienced temptations as is common to man. But Jesus submitted the will of the flesh to the will of God. He did not sin.


    @SavedByGrace offers a different view - that Jesus was not actually praying "not My will butvYours be done" but was offering an example.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    looking away from all that will distract us and] focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the Author and Perfecter of faith [the first incentive for our belief and the One who brings our faith to maturity], who for the joy [of accomplishing the goal] set before Him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God [revealing His deity, His authority, and the completion of His work].

    Hebrews 12.2
     
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,009
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This verse points clearly to the physical as well as spiritual agony that Christ was undergoing. We are told that He sweat blood.
    This is a condition called Hematohidrosis, a condition in which an individual sweats blood. It may occur in an individual who is suffering from extreme levels of stress where the capillary blood vessels that feed the sweat glands rupture, causing them to exude blood.
    A Curious Case of Sweating Blood

    The temptation Christ faced was to walk away from the cross, to find another way. In His submission to the will of the Father we have an example for us to follow when we are under trial.

     
    #3 Silverhair, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus did pray in the flesh about the agony ahead of suffering. My point is that He was not asking the Father not to go to the cross, the very reason He came into the world
     
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,009
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If not that then what was He praying for?
    Luk 22:42 Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me;...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,367
    Likes Received:
    933
    Faith:
    Baptist
    One has to ask, what was the "cup"? It's judgment of sin that Jesus, who became sin FOR us, had to take. And NO, he did not want to become sin. There in the Garden he asked the Father THREE times to take this away, but if it was the Father's will - he would do it.

    Jesus BECAME sin - so says the Bible.

    That answer is found in the Old Testament. I taught this a few years ago.

    • For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is fully mixed, and He pours it out; surely its dregs shall all the wicked of the earth drain and drink down. Psalm 75:8
    • Awake, awake! Stand up, O Jerusalem, you who have drunk at the hand of the LORD The cup of His fury; you have drunk the dregs of the cup of trembling, and drained it out. Isaiah 51:17
    • For thus says the LORD God of Israel to me: “Take this wine cup of fury from My hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send you, to drink it.” Jeremiah 25:15
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,641
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Greek text does not say that. . . . εγενετο δε ο ιδρως αυτου ωσει θρομβο αιματος καταβαινοντες επι την γην . . . .

    ωσει as if. Used 34 times in the NT.


     
    #7 37818, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,103
    Likes Received:
    3,535
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe the term "the cup" simply refers to what is to come. Sometimes this is divine wrath (poured upon wicked nations). Sometimes this is blessings bestowed upon God's people.

    So in Jesus' prayer I believe that it is indicating His suffering and death as He was made sin for us. But I wouldn't say that the cup indicates divine fury or wrath.



    Psalm 23:5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
    You have anointed my head with oil;
    My cup overflows.
     
  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,899
    Likes Received:
    2,355
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree he became sin for us... He was nailed to the cross sinless... If he was nailed to the cross sinless, there was no sin in him, so our sin mine and yours had to be put on him... And there is scripture that says it was... Brother Glen:)

    Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No quite

    This is reference to 2 Corinthians 5:21, "hamartian epoiēsen". "hamartian", here is the substantive, not the verb. Better, "to be treated as sin", or, "as though He has sinned"

    It cannot mean, as in the KJV, which the previous words shows to be wrong. Paul says, "τὸν μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν", that is "Him Who knew no sin", which is the same as "SINLESS"

    The "sinless" Jesus Christ did not "change into SIN", when on the Cross.

    The Greek "ἱλαστήριος", which is sometimes translated as "propitiation" (Romans 3:25), is more correctly "sin-offrering", or "Mercy Seat", to "cover over sin"
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In John 6:38, Jesus says, " "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me"

    It is clear that Jesus, as YHWH, knew full well what He had become Incarnate for, which was to Die on the Cross for the human race

    Jesus Christ as the God-Man, in His "human nature", would have felt the "struggles", and was in real agony. However, as God, He knew what His Mission was. There is no hint here of any conflict between His will, and that of the Father.

    Matthew says, "And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

    The "I will" is the "human will" in Jesus Christ.

    The Death of Jesus Christ, like His Incarnation, is indeed a Great Mystery, which our limited minds will never understand
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,641
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hebrews 4:15, For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,367
    Likes Received:
    933
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oops!! I'm going to be in disagreement with a few of you, so as they say on Shark Tank.......I'm out! :p
     
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,009
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    became ἐγένετο like ὡσεὶ drops θρόμβοι of blood αἵματος falling καταβαίνοντες to ἐπὶ the τὴν ground. γῆν. BSB

    So what difference does that make to our understanding of the text.

    became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground. NASB

    as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. KJV

    became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground NKJV

    became like drops of blood falling to the ground. BSB

    His Sweat G846 P-GSM ὡσεὶ As G5616 ADV θρόμβοι Great Drops G2361 N-NPM αἵματος Of Blood G129 TRi

    Christ's sweat looked like or as if it were drops of blood.

    use of ὡσεὶ G5616 in KJV

    Like 5
    As 7
    About 18
    As it were 1
    Like as 1
    As it had been 2
    As if 0
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,009
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You have just agreed with what I was pointing out.

    Christ in His humanity was in agony to the point of His sweat became as blood.

    What do you think remove this cup refers to if not the crucifixion?

    Yes as God He knew His destiny was the cross but in His humanity He was in dread of it thus the plea to find, if possible, some other way.
    The fact that He is God did not lessen the agony that He would feel in His humanity.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,853
    Likes Received:
    1,645
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The passage also addresses, indirectly, the idea there are ways to gain salvation other than faith in Jesus: Who He is and what He did.

    If there were anyway for the “cup” of suffering to be removed, would God not do it? Why have Jesus suffer if there were another way?

    In other words, if salvation is possible without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus, as some maintain, wasn’t His sacrifice unnecessary?

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,641
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That night being the 15th of the month the sweat falling on the dirt would look like clots of blood in the moon light.
    So Luke 22:44, . . .and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. . . .
    So not literally drops of blood. . . . ωσει . . . . ωσ as ει if
     
    #17 37818, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,009
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A few problems that I can see with your post. You are making your comments while ignoring scripture.

    Christ went to the cross to cover the sins of all humanity 1Jn 2:2. Was there another way for the sins to be atoned for, NO. So that explains why He went to the cross.

    You ask if it is possible for anyone to be saved without hearing the gospel of Christ Jesus. The biblical answer is, YES. Have you not read Heb 11, what has been called the Hall of Faith. Correct me if I am wrong but none of those mentioned heard the gospel of Christ Jesus did they? Are you saying that they were not saved?

    If God could save those prior to the cross through faith in Him what stops Him from doing the same now, nothing. God is sovereign correct, so why do you insist on limiting what He can do?

    God is still calling out to people through various means.be it creation, conviction of sin, even the gospel message. That is why we are told "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." Heb 4:7 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. Heb 11:1 Do think that if one called out earnestly to God.that God would not answer?

    God is sovereign He can do as He pleases and it pleases Him to save those that seek Him.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,009
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are reading into the text what you want to find.

    This is a condition called Hematohidrosis, a condition in which an individual sweats blood. It may occur in an individual who is suffering from extreme levels of stress where the capillary blood vessels that feed the sweat glands rupture, causing them to exude blood.

    Are you saying that He was not in agony, anguish, under great stress? If His sweat had not been tainted with blood why would Luke have written it that way?
     
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do agree that some of the language that we have and use, even in our Bible translations, can be a problem, in trying to describe what really cannot be easily.

    My main point being, that Jesus Christ as God knew fully what going to the Cross meant, as He had planned it from eternity past. He did not want to get way from what He had to do, His "human nature" felt the force of things more.
     
Loading...