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Does God have two wills?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Jan 19, 2003
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    In another thread, which was closed because others were not behaving (please don't carry that over to this thread), Luke made a point about the two wills of God...HERE

    We have discussed God's prescriptive will (command) versus His decretive will (unchangeable decree) before in this forum, but the question really is about God decreeing something that opposes his command...and more importantly, what exactly is a divine decree. Is a divine decree permissive in nature or determinative?

    God commands for you not to lie (prescriptive will), but you choose to lie and God brings about a redemptive purpose through your lying (decretive will).

    Now, is your lying decreed by God in the sense that God determined that you would certainly lie so as to bring about his redemptive purpose, or is your lying decreed by God in the sense that God permitted you to make that choice freely and He worked that sinful choice out for a greater redemptive purpose?

    Would God determine something to happen that He commanded not to happen and thus break his own command? Or does God permit His commands to be broken freely, but is such a great and knowledgable being that He is able to always work whatever choices we make out to fulfill his decretive will?

    Put another way, is God bound to determine the move of both sides of the chess board to ensure victory, or is God such a masterful Chessmaster that regardless of what free move his opponent makes He is able to counter it and bring about victory?
    #1 Skandelon, Nov 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2013
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Jul 8, 2009
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    The scriptures say God does not tempt any man to sin, so God does not determine that men sin. (Jam 1:13)

    God gives men free will because he is love (1 Jhn 4:8), and love does not compel or force another (1 Cor 13:4-8). God could have determined not to create man and prevented sin, but wanting companionship and fellowship with man God must allow a certain degree of sin, all the while desiring that men repent and trust Christ.

    The scriptures command us to overcome evil with good, and this is precisely how God overcomes sin.

    Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

    I do not believe God has some secret will that contradicts his revealed will.

    And if God has a secret will, he has not done a very good job of keeping it secret. Ludicrous.
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Mar 4, 2011
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    God created a purview where we can exercise our autonomous will within the limits allowed. We make plans but God directs our steps.

    Exhaustive control is not required to fulfill His purpose. All things work together for good for those who love the Lord at a minimum only requires salvation (spending an eternity in heaven) without any manipulation of our day to day misadventures.

    God has given us instructions (thou shall not steal) but we can steal with the purview God allows. The price paid for that sin depends upon whether a person has obtained mercy or not.

    Certainly God does harden the hearts of individuals, foreclosing their opportunity to obtain mercy, for His greater redemptive purpose. See Romans 11.

    Of course God will fulfill His purpose of creation, choosing wholehearted believers to declare His glory, whether or not we stumble and cause pain and suffering and death here on earth.

    All this seeming chaos must be viewed as "birth-pains" necessary for the selection process, but unnecessary in heaven.

    Exhaustive determinism is mistaken doctrine, God says things happen by chance. As the beatniks used to say, "don't sweat the small stuff."
  4. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Aug 23, 2002
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    Mordecai seem to parallel Van's thoughts when he wrote to Esther saying: “Do not think to yourself that in the king’s palace you will escape any more than all the other Jews. For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?” Esther 4:13–14, ESV

  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

    Aug 27, 2002
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    Non Baptist Christian
    Person - A smokes get cancer and dies.

    Perspon - B is walking across the street and is not hit by Person-A driving his car late at night with too little sleep - because Person-A has already died.

    You might argue that God has "brought about some good thing" because of Person-A's death.

    But in fact - Person-A's family is damaged, his contributions in life stunted, his missionary service never begun.

    Evil produces evil results - no question about it. But CAN God bring some bit of light from it? Yes!.

    And if other person's take to heart the cause of the cancer that killed person-A and resolve to be even more determined than before - not to smoke - then more good threads are attached to it.

    But in the end perfect health and perfect obedience would have resulted in less damage to all.

    God does not "need evil" to get the truth out or to mature the group.

    in Christ,