1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Does God Love Every Individual Person in the Same Manner?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Jan 7, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    5,360
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Two questions:

    1) Are you a Universalist?

    2) What's your take on Romans 9?

    If you're able to answer either of these questions without childish insults and straw man arguments, it would be greatly helpful.
     
  2. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    5,360
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's like saying a criminal chooses to reject the law and sends himself to jail.

    Of course not. It's the judge who judges the criminal and finds him guilty who sends him to jail.

    But, according to Finneyism, why wasn't Judas saved? After all, he did all the right things.
     
  3. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is what the Word of God says:

    "And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46)

    By their rejection of the Gospel, these Jews thus JUDGED THEMSELVES unworthy of ETERNAL LIFE, and thereby were DAMNING THEMSELVES to hell! God did not do this, but they did so THEMSELVES!
     
  4. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Universal Atonement is 100% Biblical. Universal Salvation is 100% NOT!

    What in Romans 9?
     
  5. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    5,360
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, scripture is clear that God is the one who judges, not us.

    The passage says that, by rejecting the Word of God, they were judged unworthy of eternal life by their rejection of God's Word, not that they examined themselves and deemed themselves unworthy. That would contradict scripture, which says that every man proclaims his own righteousness.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    5,360
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, if you believe in universal atonement, then why aren't all men saved? Is Christ's atonement ineffective?

    It's a chapter in the Bible, located between Romans 8 and Romans 10.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So true. I have a very anti-Calvinist friend who has been a Christian for over 40 years and he was unaware of Romans 9!

    They hide from texts that their worldview simply has no answer for.
     
  8. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What exactly have the parables of Jesus Christ got to do with eternal life? The Bible clearly says that "all things" have been given to Jesus, Who Himself is Almighty God. When Jesus says that He prays for those whom the Father had given Him, if you read the context, He is speaking of His Disciples there. You cannot assume form this that His words here are for all people, of all time!

    See what Matthew 13:15 says;

    "For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them."

    Interestingly here Jesus does not quote from the Hebrew of Isaiah, but the Greek Septuagint, as Paul does in Acts 28:27, where the action of the "closing of the eyes", is said to be SELF, and not by God. The Greek is very clear on this!
     
  9. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    you seem to be blind to what the Bible says!
     
  10. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    show me where is Romans 9 is their ANY support for Calvinism?
     
  11. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matthew 13:10-11

    The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

    He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
     
  12. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I know what it says. But, where does it say, that Jesus spoke in parables so that the "non-elect" could not understand and not get saved? Where exactly does it say that His parables were to restrict the salvation of anyone? You are reading too much into what Jesus actually does say!
     
  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That would be far too easy. Don't you want me to do something a bit more challenging?
     
  14. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The next verse.
     
  15. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    the next verse is 12, "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath" Where is salvation mentioned here? Where does it say I use parables so that the non-elect cannot understand and therefore cannot be saved? NOWHERE! I wait for Bible evidence!
     
  16. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wait...
     
  17. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    10The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

    11He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

    “Though seeing, they do not see;

    though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

    14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

    “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

    15For this people’s heart has become calloused;

    they hardly hear with their ears,

    and they have closed their eyes.

    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

    hear with their ears,

    understand with their hearts

    and turn, and I would heal them.’a

    16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
     
  18. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    **** WARNING!!!!! Reading the below text might cause you to become a Calvinist****

    9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
     
  19. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You missed the most important part of verse 15, "they have closed their eyes"! It was not because Jesus did not want them not to understand and not get saved, which you guys are trying hard to find in the Bible, But THEY CLOSED THEIR EYES to the Truth! Paul says the same in 2 Thessalonians 2:10, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved". Stick to the Word and be safe!
     
  20. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,545
    Likes Received:
    56
    Faith:
    Baptist
    OK, so you have cut and pasted from Romans 9, what of it? spell it out!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...