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Featured Does God love the seed of the serpent? pt2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, May 14, 2019.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    There were several posts that needed an examination and answer from the other thread.
    JonC

    I have always posted God loved us[the elect] while we were yet sinners. That is the teaching of Romans 5.
    There was never a time when the elect were not considered as being outside of the Mediator
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    JonC
    "
    I am approaching the fuller gospel"...What does that even mean? I think I have a solid grasp of the full gospel. Your posts suggest that somehow I lack some major puzzle piece.
    it seemed like one of many off topic posts and comments.What is up with that?

    JONC:Sick
    [What you have done with the OP is to take Scripture as if it were a sort of textbook. It is perhaps an error of the Enlightenment - gathering doctrines but never seeing the depth embodied in the fuller picture.]

    Hopefully you are trying to help. But you sometimes are coming out of left field.
    Who says I do not see the fuller picture?
    This implies you do, and i do not. I am not the subject of the OP.

    JonC
    [You see redemption but can't quite get redemption history]

    In this thread I was using quotes from Jonathan Edwards who is considered perhaps one of the greatest theologians ever. I do not think he failed to see redemptive history. This work is a classic.
    When you make such comments I am not sure if your thinking is on track.:Sick

    JONC
    [ is that at some level you are begining to sense an error in your theology. At least that would be a preferable reason as there would exist hope God is opening your eyes to the meat of the gospel.]

    You keep suggesting this. I do not share your view. In fact, I have no doubt I have a clearer view than you do of the full impact of the gospel and its place in redemptive history
    JonC
    [Set aside your theology for a moment and just read Scripture - read at least Genesis, Matthew and John (as it is, not as a reference book). Do this a couple of times. Then let's have this conversation]

    No thanks..I am good. Again you are suggesting you are out in front and I need to catch up. I do not see it the same as you do.
    JonC
    [When we pull out things we see in Scripture and arrange them to our liking there is always a danger of creating ideas foreign to Scripture. Scripture deals with ideas in its own context.]

    You go about things as you do, I go about it quite differently. Sure there can be danger and we need to be cautious. That being said I think we are to agressively meditate on scripture with a view to serve God and win the lost as God works in us.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt2
    JonC
    [But at the same time I have learned to be careful not to offer "meat" to those who have yet been weaned from the "milk". That is why I have been pointing and suggesting that you set aside theology for a time and simply read Scripture as it is presented]


    For you to suggest this could be seen as offensive. I do not have thin skin , but again I will say that your view of this is way off.
    JONC


    I already do this and am more than confident that God will give me what I need to serve Him
    JonC

    You certainly have a right to your view. I and others have a right to our view as well.
    Notice, I am not telling you what I think you need to do.

    JONC

    Again, a sort of condescending post from you to me? You think it is "time I seek the meat of the word"?? As if you have it and I do not??
    Let's make a deal... if I want you to tell me what to seek, I will ask you.
    Again...I do not tell you what you need.

    JONC


    Here Again; a superficial and humanistic view??? This is going on in your head not in reality

    JONC

    Again, only you have a Christ-centered theology??? Are you kidding me?
    You agree that this is one thing that separates us???
    That is really big of you JonC:Sick:Sleep:rolleyes::oops:
    Thanks but, I will once again hold what I do:Sneaky:Sneaky:Thumbsup

    JonC

    It certainly does not make it right either:Cautious

    JONC
    [Many stick to the milk of the issues, I think sometimes because the milk makes very little demand of us. As you continue you studies, I encourage you to prayerfully consider what is being communicated not only by theological doctrines that you see in your reading but also (and more importantly) by the Scripture as a whole. Look at the context in view of redemptive history. When you are able to do this you will see an amazing depth of Scripture that you may not have recognized in the theological expositions you sometimes seem to favor.]

    Again, another tedious attack from you toward me???Now I stick to milk again:Rolleyes:Cautious
    You never have given any scriptural offering of all this meat you allegedly have. Perhaps you can start your own thread and reveal these secrets you have that we do not
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JONC
    [I know that is what you believe to be true. I've been where you are now. What I have found is that there is much more to Scripture than the sum of its parts. The Holy Spirit guides us to all truth, @Iconoclast .]

    I responded with this;
    1]
    The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles into All Truth, not us.

    2]We are given the Spirit to be able to welcome the truth, but we do not have the same promise the Apostles had.


    This is basic bible ...Apostolic uniqueness. This can be clearly demonstrated without a doubt, maybe not tonight as I need to sleep soon...but look at how you took what I said and twisted it. Why do you feel to do this?
    One comment was about the Apostles, the other was about us having the Spirit.
    then you went here;

    JonC

    Or perhaps not

    Notice...I clearly posted that exact thing in point two;
    2]We are given the Spirit to be able to welcome the truth, but we do not have the same promise the Apostles had.

    So why would you suggest I do not believe this???



    Where did I say the Spirit is not given to guide us? If you read what I actually posted it was the Apostles were uniquely promised to be guided into ALL TRUTH...YOU ARE NOT.

    iF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ME, DO SO ACCURATELY. Then you use this as an excuse to suggest I cannot identify the meat of scripture once again. Does this not seem pathetic to you as you read what you posted???


    JONC


    I already said that. Why do you post as if I did not say so?

    JonC
    [This is what some Baptists have referred to the "indwelling" of the Spirit. That you find this problematic is very interesting to me as I was not aware there were Baptists who denied this work of God in the lives of believers.]

    As if I do not know what the indwelling of the Spirit is?
    Then you suggest I find this problematic?
    Then you have me denying this work in believers?

    Martin and Biblicist were critical of you for this kind of posting. They suggested you change your ways. How could I suggest anything different???

    JonC

    This will be a separate thread. Your spin is once again unfortunate
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In another thread Jason posted this;
    Whatever expansionist advocacy is, I simply know that Jesus showed that the Scriptures spoke of Himself Luke 24:25-27.

    Paul stated that the seed is Christ. Galatians 3:16

    Furthermore, Scripture is a unity, a thematic whole.
    Genesis 3:15 the seed is promised
    Genesis 12:1-3 the seed promised through Abram
    Genesis 21:12 the seed called in Isaac
    Genesis 25:23 in Jacob
    Genesis 49:10 in Judah
    2 Samuel 7; Isaiah 9:6-7 in David
    And fulfilled in Jesus the Christ Luke 1&2; Galatians 4:4-5;Hebrews 2:14;Romans 16:20;Revelation 20:1-15

    Regardless of the name one calls it, Bible believing people understand and accept the fact that Scripture’s purpose is to reveal God to us, and to show us the way of redemption in His Son. To claim that leads to false doctrine is an incorrect and unjust statement that absolutely contradicts the very words of Jesus in Luke 24:25-27 and John 5:39. Paul attested to this as well in Romans 15:8-13, where he tells us Christ fulfills the promises to the fathers that we might have hope in Christ and give God glory.

    This fits very nicely in this thread as well.
     
  5. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    And what happens if Jon decides not to get involved this thread? He may decide all he would be doing is to raise the rhetorical temperature of the Board, i.e throw gas on the fire.
     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Then I will proceed with the thread with Jonathan Edward's before it got derailed.
    I was in a church where we worked through his work and it helped to unify all 66 books of the bible in the minds of many.
    Certainly no one is obligated to participate.
    These questions happened in a flurry on the last thread. I was not able to address the concerns until last night.
     
  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Wanted to read this thread but am put off with all the multi-colored, bolded fontasy.
     
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  8. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jonathan Edwards continues,

    When the language and people were scattered for a time the true knowledge of God was hidden from many people who lived in those days.
    God sustained the godly line, and was longsuffering with the wicked, until the fulness of time was come
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    VII. Another thing I would mention in this period,
    was God’s preserving the true religion in that line from which Christ was to proceed,

    when the world in general apostatized to idolatry, and the church was in imminent danger of being swallowed in the general corruption. Although God had lately wrought so wonderfully for the deliverance of his church, and had shown so great mercy towards it, as for its sake even to destroy all the rest of the world; and although he had lately renewed and established his covenant of grace with Noah and his sons; yet so prone is the corrupt heart of man to depart from God, and to sink into the depths of wickedness, darkness, and delusion, that the world soon after the flood fell into gross idolatry; so that before Abraham the distemper was become almost universal.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God has always an eye on the godly line. He has meticulously arranged all events to lead them to salvation
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This was a new thing: God had never taken such a method before. His church had not in this manner been separated from the rest of the world till now; but were wont to dwell with them, without any bar or fence to keep them separate; the mischievous consequence of which had been found once and again.

    Before the flood, the effect of God’s people living intermingled with the wicked world, without any remarkable wall of separation, was, that the sons of the church joined in marriage with others, and thereby almost all soon became infected, and the church was almost brought to nothing

    The method that God then took to fence the church was, to drown the wicked world, and save the church in the ark
    . Before Abraham was called, the world was become corrupt again. But now God took another method; he did not destroy the wicked world, and save Abraham, and his wife, and Lot, but calls these persons to go and live separate from the rest of the world.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Edwards;

    How come no one seems to object that God had chosen to redeem people primarily from one nation?

    2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The N T hold the church was a mystery revealed at this last age.


    The “seed” was not that ancestral line flowing directly from Eve / Adam culminating with the Messiah. It was the Messiah carried in the ancestral line. Because the Messiah is first fruits, it is through Him (His Word - seed) that sown in the heart of the unregenerate bears life unto harvest.

    There was no OT church, it was a hidden mystery because God wanted to make redemption to both gentile and Jew.
     
    #14 agedman, May 16, 2019
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
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  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    One other problem. You seem to hold a view of God Only loving the elect.

    Is all Israel His elect? “He came to His own...”.

    When the Scriptures present the grace and Love of God, it is always (as best as I recall) in the light of favor that is undeserved. That is, the fact of elect is not the distinguisher or extinguisher of love.

    God doesn’t distinguish between deserving or not, love or not, but makes a choice based solely upon His purpose.

    Therefore, it is inconsistent to hold God only loves the elect, but rather He is as one who owns the whole land. He selects what is to be the purpose of the land. His work is not distinguished by love, but by purpose.

    Or as the Scripture say, that of the same clay molds according to His purpose. If there is love, it is for the whole lump of clay, not just that small part selected for some purpose.

    Does God love some more?

    Certainly, as found in this line:
    “See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.”

    Doesn’t indicate that He only loved, but that the love was great and undeserved.

    He selects of all He loves those to call His children.
     
    #15 agedman, May 16, 2019
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
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  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Not all Israel was of Israel. God only has a saving love for the elect.
     
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Certainly, God only has Saving love for the elect, just as any parent. However, that does not present God from having love enough to prepare a place for the condemned.

    God’s Love es neither a switch or rheostat. God is love, and though that love is expressed at multiple levels and ways, it is never extinguished.

    How this applies to the seed is that, certainly, God had those of Israel who ere redeemed, but they were not a church.

    The church (the NT states) was a mystery not revealed in the OT.

    When Christ gave himself “for the church” it was for all believers, and not until his death and resurrection that the OT redeemed were united to the NT redeemed in which the Gentiles are grafted into the church, the Israel of all redeemed.

    Decades ago, a preacher was foaming about God hating this or that, and His intolerance of... you know that kind of preaching.

    Well, I reflected then, that unlike human capacity love, God is unthreatened by The spurning of love. He gave irregardless, because He loved.

    However, it is worthy of note, that the Love of God does not extend to making all righteous as some would appoint, nor even present the power of choice to be righteous as others would froth.

    God’s Love is righteous, and His Saving Love abounds to those He calls His child.
     
  18. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Being, they, were the only ones he did know, how did he foreknow, those, he had not known?

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God is omniscient. He knows all things perfectly. When the bible speaks of His special knowing of PERSONS it means His intimate knowledge of Them.
    God knew about all nations, but when it says You ONLY have I known, it is speaking of His Covenant making with one nation out of all others.
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Acts7
    38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    What verses are you thinking of saying the church was a mystery....I know a few but want to see which ones you are thinking of?
     
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