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Featured Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 25, 2022.

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  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the offer form God is genuine, where the problem comes in is that under the Calvinist view you have to ask just how genuine is it. You say that "when a Calvinist talks about someone being "unable" to choose Christ the inability is moral in nature." There I have to disagree with you.
    Just look at what that theology teaches:
    Unconditional Election: Faith is not required
    Limited Atonement: Jesus paid only for those few elect
    Irresistible Grace: The elect have no choice about being elect

    What God said was "all you have to do is trust in my son" that is the one condition. Under Calvinism you have to hope that you are one of the lucky ones that God chose but you can never be sure. Our ability or inability to trust in God has no real meaning in Calvinism but it does in the bible.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Lucifer is the embodiment of sin.

    it is my opinion, that Lucifer was most interested in the creation and that especially of Adam and Eve.

    So certainly, I consider Lucifer skulking about in the unseen and lurking to find weakness.

    Does he not do that even to this day, on the prowl, lurking, skulking, ready to pounce on the weak, sickly, new born, old and feeble, …
     
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Thank you I enjoy a good discussion also. We are Christian brothers and like brothers at times we disagree.
     
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I would agree with what you posted.

    God does implant His law into every human heart (Romans), however just as in the opening of John, Folks turn away (John 1).

    Therefore, when it comes to choices that are moral, good, right, …they may certainly exercise the will.

    However, when it comes to choices that pertain to that which is perfect, then everyone has come short (Romans).

    Depravity, is the disability (inability) to achieve God’s standard of righteousness. “There is none righteous, not even a single one” (my paraphrased version).
     
  5. Mikey

    Mikey Active Member

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    God cannot sovereignly give up his sovereignty, thus making Himself nolonger sovereign. God was/is/forever soverign.
     
  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it is just speculation re Lucifer but I do think he would have had a limited freewill just as we have. I can not envision that God would want His creation to just be mindless robots.

    God loves us and wants us to love Him in return but for anyone to truly love requires the ability to not love. That is one of the reasons I hold to a free will view.
     
  7. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Or do what atheist do and blame God for everything. That is how generalized they make it. No reasoning but, God did it. Thus they reject God because God is equally good and evil and thus cancels out God altogether.
     
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    There was a day when I have agreed.

    The cattle on a Texas ranch have freedom of the will, or do they?

    They may certainly journey as they choose, when they choose, but are they really endowed with freedom of the will?

    One may rightly say we are not cattle, yet what freedom do we have from our own abilities? Can we by thoughts add hair or height? Can we take wings and fly as the eagle? Can we control the forces of nature by our words? Can we by our will declare John 1 does not apply and by force of will cause God to find us worthy of redemption?

    Freedom of the will? Freedom to do what? Make choices? Certainly. Attain righteousness, The Scriptures says no.
     
  9. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    If that were the case just letting something happen is the same as decreeing it. Then God did not pre-ordain anything. He could just sit back and watch it happen and do nothing.

    Putting the tree in the Garden was not a decree to sin. It was a decree to avoid sin.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Was Adam an atheist? No, of course not.

    what I’m suggesting is that not only atheists, but most blame God. Or they blame the devil.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I apologize. I thought you had declared yourself an open theist. Since you say you are not, I will stop stating such about you.
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Another twisting and reinterpreted reinterpretation from you. Care to twist again? It is amazing to see you mis-state and falsely represent theology you despise. But, keep it up so we all get to see you squirm.
     
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Now I have to disagree with your view of disability (inability) man has been given the ability to trust in Christ Jesus or all the IF / THEN verses are moot and God is just being disingenuous. And we know God is not that.
    The verses that you are referring to are a midrash. These 9 verses [Rom 3:10-18] are a forthright condemnation of fallen man. But they say nothing about man’s will or his ability or inability to receive the gospel or to exercise faith.
    The bible is clear that God expects man to make a choice, why do you not see this.
     
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. We will continue to disagree but we should not have to be disagreeable in doing so.
     
    #274 Silverhair, Feb 28, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2022
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Wrong I do not despise Calvinism I just think that it is wrong in how it presents salvation etc. By the way I do not squirm as I am quite comfortable where I stand in my theology.
     
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Did I say God gave up His sovereignty? NO But perhaps you can show me where I said that.
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    A man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from cancelling his guilt (Rom_3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

    The Bible is clear that not only do we have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Mat_3:2; Mat_4:17; Act_3:19; 1Jn_3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

    Christ Jesus pointed out the problem when He told some unbelievers, “you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life” (Joh_5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; it was not that they could not it was that they would not. Obviously Christ Jesus thought those men could make a real choice.
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Dave I can agree with what Edwards said to a point. Does God have absolute foreknowledge? Yes. Does that mean that in some way He has ordained whatever happens to happen? No.

    Now think this through, if what Edwards said were true then it would require that God ordains not just the good but also the bad. The salvation and the condemning of every soul.

    Knowing that something will happen does not require that He make it happen. Remember God is outside of time He sees the end from the beginning so He does not have to ordain anything in order to know that it happens.

    God has a plan for the salvation of His creation. The fact that we have a free will does not and cannot alter the outcome of His plan.

    I think that Edwards was looking through a tinted lens when he made those comments.
     
  19. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Nope, sin was not lurking. The knowledge of good and evil is not sin lurking. That is accepting the lie of the Serpent, himself. All Satan knew was what Adam knew. The day Adam disobeyed was the day Adam would die. Yet Satan lied and said surely one would not die. None of creation were aware of sin prior to Adam. Satan knew about rebellion and his angels locked up in the pit. Perhaps he thought Adam and Eve would end up there as well? Paul explains: Romans 5:12

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

    So no sin and no knowledge of sin.

    You do realize that it was Adam's disobedience and physical death that allowed us to experience sin? As sons of God we could not experience sin. Sin is not a thing nor something created. Sin is the experience of knowing good and evil itself. Sin is the experience and death by sin the punishment of Adam's disobedience.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    My thought on sin lurking is best stated by James.

    Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
    ~ James 1:13-15
     
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