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Does God Predestinate the Damned?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 3, 2007.

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  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    The following passage has been brought forth many times in support of double predestination. My question to the list is, does it? In light of what one might see as the context of this chapter, are these verses speaking of individuals, or is the context clearly nations? There are many issues at stake in these verses we need to look at. Another one would be, in light of verse 19, what is this verse speaking about? To whom is the verse directed or to what comments is it referring to?

    Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 3, 2007
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  2. windcatcher

    windcatcher New Member

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    Hmmmmmmmmmm????
    I would like to know the answer too!

    I have often thought about 'predestined' as to mean 'it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgement'. Thus all since Adam are predestined to die...... and will be judged. But 'Whosoever believeth in me will not perish but have everlasting life' to mean, at the cross our sins were judged and substitutionarily paid so that the 'whosoevers' that believe have received a destination predetermined at the cross..... But it is not exactly clear.

    I think it is within God's sovereign power and right to do whatever he wilt and it be righteous regardless of some to honor and others to dishonor, or some born into the kingdom and others condemned. Nevertheless, I also think His justice gives all mankind a choice, but his foreknowledge already knows what choices will be made: He knows the environment which shapes the clay, the pressures of life which shape the heart and personality of each of us. The shaping of our personality, our hearts, our attitudes, is partially by our own choice and also by the pressures of others and circumstances in our environment. But that doesn't mean it removes us from responsibility for making the wrong choice because our character was already shaped full of pride and arrogance and anger, as with Pharoah. Nor does that prevent God from placing such a person in the right place at the right time to bring glory to God and be an example to others.

    I've sometimes wondered about Judas. I believe our LORD already knew he was a son of perdition, a 'devil', but he included Judas in the circle of discipleship, in a sense giving the Devil an intimate witness to His justice and compassion, and still Judas made the wrong choice (which I don't mean to equate as giving the devil a choice).

    But this confuses me....... and I express here to be transparent that I am baffled by some of these questions. God bless.....Got to run to church (or rather drive :) .
     
    #2 windcatcher, Jun 3, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 2 we have a quote from Malachi for Jacob and Esau speaking of the nations of Edom and Israel.

    But later you have an example with Pharaoh that is at the individual level.

    In the verses you quote God states that he needs to be longsuffering and patients towards vessels of wrath - those whom HE foreknows to never choose to accept the Gospel - "in order that" the RICHES of His mercy can be clearly seen - "made known" to the vessels of mercy -- those whom He foreknows to ACCEPT the Gospel invitation.

    So the question here is WHY does He need to be longsuffering toward the lost IN ORDER that he might make known (so that He can show) just how rich and deep His mercies are to those who WILL ONE DAY accept the Gospel??


    22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

    23And He did so to make known[/b] the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy[/b], which He prepared beforehand for glory,
    24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

    Christ said that HE is the God who sends blessings and rain "upon both the just and the unjust" and we TOO should have that same sense of love and concern for ALL and "so show ourselves to be children of the Father"

    How is it that God wants US to emulate HIS concern for ALL if in fact He is merely arbitrarily selective in loving the FEW of Matt7 and hating the MANY?? (or worse - He is predestining the MANY of Matt 7 to hell)
     
    #3 BobRyan, Jun 3, 2007
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  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Let me throw this into the mix as well. What is wrong with God’s predestination of the damned or the righteous in this verse? Here we have a clear text that states that God called a people, NOT that ‘were’ His chosen people, but that He at a later time ‘calls’ them His people, God calls a people His beloved, that were NOT beloved. Something clearly appears to change here at a point and time in the timeline of history, something at direct antipodes with any notion of predestination of the damned or the righteous. Those that ‘were not,’ NOW God ‘calls them His people.’ Those that He stated He did not come to redeem, He now turns to with the offer of salvation.


     
    #4 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 3, 2007
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  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Israel is called "a chosen race" a holy nation. But Paul argues in Romans 9 that God is showing mercy on those NOT a part of Israel as well as some In Israel - while CONDEMNING some members of the chosen nation as well as members of the Gentile nations.

    It is a case of he CHOSEN for favor - being condemned and the NOT-Chosen being shown mercy in the case of those individuals in each group that either choose to accept the Gospel or choose to reject it.

    Acts 11 "BUT IN EVERY NATION those who choose to follow God are accepted"

    John 1 "To as many as RECEIVED Him" to those who chose Christ and the Gospel method of salvation - to THEM He gave the right to be called the sons of God.

    CHOOSE you this day whom you will serve.
     
    #5 BobRyan, Jun 3, 2007
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    I know there are some out there besides BR and myself that shrink back from even a brief thought of God predestining the damned to eternal damnation. In light of the passage in question, how do others find support for their notions that run contrary to double predestination?
     
    #6 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 3, 2007
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Whosoever believes, believes either antecedent to or subsequent to the cross except possibly the one thief. How can anything be predetermined at the cross? It would appear to me that such a notion would automatically exclude all that died before the cross, and would establish the notion of fatalism due to the fact that only those predetermined to receive salvation ever had even the possibility to be saved. Such a view would be espousing double predetermination. Is that what you honestly feel is the truth?
     
    #7 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 3, 2007
  8. windcatcher

    windcatcher New Member

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    T/Y HP, for you kind reply.

    And no, I did not mean it the way it came out... It seems that before the cross it was faith that counted for righteousness.... and people had choices then as now.

    I guess what I'm trying to say, in the foreknowledge that God has regarding the choices and outcome of each person, their outcome is predestined by thier choice. It is not as much that God wills it ....although He has that power and right, but that as one might take a test and a question have one right answer and plenty of wrong answers.... and the test taker makes his choice.... the outcome, though determined by his choice is already 'predestined' by the author of the test regarding the standard of what is allowable/accepted and what is failure.

    Sort of like, God exist beyond the demensions of time, so that everything that is yet to be is as though it already was.... because of his 'foreknowledge'. (I'm sorry if I can explain....it seems limitations on the concept and the language to express it may be beyond my grasp.... and probably my full comprehension.) It is like God gives man choices: The responsibility for choosing life or death is ours. But the out come is predetermine by the choice we make. Because of his foreknowledge (i.e. God is not bound by the constraints of time to have to wait...as he already knows the end from the beginning) He places our clay pieces on the game board to suit his strategy, as to which will make it home and which may be 'sacrificed'. 'Course this sounds a bit too fatalistic...... so I'm not clear about any of this as I do believe in free choice..... but there does seem to exist some predestination also in the scriptures: Where one ends and the other begins or how the two are compatible, or how my thinking is flawed..... I don't really know..... But I'm grateful that the question is brought up and the comments made.

    However it may end up being just one of those things which is 'mystery' to me that i must accept as such rather than be disturbed about it; have faith and trust Him who will in His good pleasure make all things clear.
     
    #8 windcatcher, Jun 4, 2007
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: One thing I believe we can know with certainty, is that if God holds man accountable for his actions, and punishes or praises man for them, man is the first cause of them. If man is to be punished or praised, man is the responsible party and as such was not under force or coercion in those choices. I cannot help but to feel that think otherwise is absurd in the light of justice.

    In ones theology we indeed may hold many uncertainties, but we should never entertain absurdities.
     
    #9 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 4, 2007
  10. AAA

    AAA New Member

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    THis is something that the free-willers has to look at very close to see if GOD will open thier eyes to see this TRUTH or not...

    There are only two places that men can go to spend eternity...With GOD in heaven, or without GOD in hell...

    Lets just suppose a man stand before GOD and GOD does not let this man into heaven, where will this man go to then? HELL...

    IF GOD is soverign, because HE is, then HE has total rights to do to you as HE so pleases without getting your permission to do with you what HE will...

    A man that gives permission to GOD declares his own sinful pride.........

    GOD does not need my permission to do anything within HIS power...If this is NOT true, then man is soverign and GOD is NOT....

    GOD will save whom HE will and ALL others will have to go where?

    Pure and simple logic.....
     
    #10 AAA, Jun 4, 2007
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  11. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    Thanks, Windcatcher. I enjoy reading your posts. :thumbs:
     
    #11 DQuixote, Jun 4, 2007
  12. AAA

    AAA New Member

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    I think that you made a mistake...

    I am not Windcatcher, I am AAA......
     
    #12 AAA, Jun 4, 2007
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