"Does Regeneration Precede or Follow Faith" part 2

I have to admit that John 3 is tough to pin exactly what Jesus is saying. How can you be certain that His definition of new birth is equivalent to the work of the Spirit in giving life. Thus far I have only received more passages speaking of God giving a new heart and spirit? I believe God does do a work similar to your view of regeneration, I am just not ready to label it being born again. Does that make sense? is it logical to you? thanks

 

Sproul defines the word in Greek the same way you did. To begin ... again. When speaking of Titus 3:5 would you agree that Paul is echoing Old Testament language of the New Covenant? If not why does he use "washing of regeneration?"

 

The confusion is that regeneration is not defined by most Calvinists as life. Rather, it is a capacity to do spiritual things. It is the empowerment of a spirit to come alive or awaken, and perform things in a spiritual direction, in a Christ-ward direction. In that sense, regeneration has to precede faith, in keeping with that definition. An ability to perform an action must exist prior to that action.

The other confusing thing, is that many writers of the past would also use the word regeneration to refer to the process of renewing the person to Christ-likeness. Care must be taken when quoting such writers, to dicern which definition of regeneration they mean.

Blessings!

 

When y'all figure this one out--send me a PM.

...Bob

 

Gospel of our Salvation

Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[Or in; also in verses 19 and 20] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”

James 5:
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[Isaiah 53:1] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I believe God made us the messenger of Christ and His word and the message brings man to the state of Adam. To believe God don't eat from the tree and live or now trust in His Son and live or not and be condemned. It is simple, but men complicate it. Christ word regenerates, renews if we reject it we reject life. Those who didn't trust in Christ was cut out of what they were already in and those who trusted in Christ remained and those who were not in it from the beginning was included when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. The elect is simply those who trust in Christ.

 

I think the question is worded poorly. While they happen at the same time (chronological term), one must cause the other to be an effect (logical terms). So it should be put, "What is the cause and what is the effect in regards to faith and regeneration?"

In my opinion, the logical (not chronological) ordo salutis is that regeneration causes faith (read enables faith).

 

Simple

God didn't incline anyone's heart to believe, He simply placed two roads that was there from the beginning to believe God and live or don't and die.

Deuteronomy 30:
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

 

I would agree. Salvation begins with God, not us

 

This is new to me and Ill give you the benefit of the doubt although Im skeptical with this comment. It seems that most the ones I read seem to define it as a spiritual resurrection to life. Definitions and clarity on terms is vital in my opinion. How does the Bible represent "life" and how does that contrast from the Bible's view of how He brings a sinner to life? In my study it seems life isn't represented in a single event of the Spirit's work but rather the entirety of His work over salvation. In that sense regeneration is an all encompassing work of salvation, yet Jesus term born again is a completed phase of one being saved and in Christ.

I would agree with them on this. I was reading Millard Ericksons views in His systematic theology and found He holds that the enablement in accorance with God's will rests in the effectual call of God to His elect. He may me on to something as I have shared the same thoughts. Erickson also puts regeneration after faith in his order of things.

I told my friend last night that we tend to take words and look at them through a theological lense to much. When we say regeneration we autmatically have a Biblical theology upon the word. Look at Titus 3:5 and Mathew 19:28, the Bible doesn't use the word as boxed in as we make it. A word means what it is therefore I would not have an issue with using it for the regeneration of all things at the end, being regenerated in sanctification, or being regenerated from my spiritual deadness. It is simply to make new. This was confusing to me when trying to equate the word regeneration with born again, because in my mind regeneration can be a process and being born again is a state of being.

 

I agree with this comment. Would you define regeneration as a single event in the order of salvation or and the whole event? I would describe it as the whole event of God causing a sinner to have life (including washing away of sin, indwelling, adoption). Yet at the very same time I see God beginning the process by His internal and irrevocable call to His elect. In other words regeneration is a process not a single event while prior to faith God does need to open eyes, change desires, and what not to defeat the sin nature. I can also put it this way before someone believes God must begin the process of being born again, yet a person is not born until he/she is completely new. Think of it like a physical birth there is a process after conception that takes time, but the person isnt born until the process is complete. In God's case His process may be a split second, but it is a process.

 

I agree with you here. My main argument is that when Jesus is speaking of being born again it seems that He isn't speaking of one event in the middle of the order of salvation but the entirety of salvation.. All of which are are sovereign work of God.

I agree and will think about the idea of New Testament roots on certain topics drawn from the Old. My struggle is that he includes washing in connection with regeneration. In other words the washing is part of the regeneration. Part of being made new is also being forgiven of sins which is what we label justification on the "ordo salutis".

I also agree that the OT Law could not change people and Paul speaks of that in many of his writings. Think of it this way- The washing of regeneration is how God saved us in the sense of a completed event in accordance with the New Covenant. How did God save us? it wasn't just giving us spiritual eyes, ears and a new heart. Yes He did that but He also died for sin and gave sent to us the Spirit of truth.

It does, my view is tough because it is not very common. I especially struggle because all of my favorite teachers I study would disagree. And lastly I try to remember that I do not have much depth in Scripture as I am a fairly new Christian, I have been wrong a lot, and try to keep that in mind in search for truth. :thumbs:

 

I have to be careful when I say that, to a Calvinist, regeneration doesn't mean "life". For, in the sense of awakening them or causing their spirits to "come alive" so as to move them in a God-ward direction, to a Calvinist, this is giving them the spark of life or making them alive, in a sense, so that they are now enabled to act faith towards Christ. The beginning of the process is noted by the Calvinist as the point of regeneration. From then on, the Spirit's work of sanctification ensues. And so, the Calvinist makes the distinction between the "beginnings of their renewal" and their "actual renewal process", calling the first "regeneration", and the second "sanctification". Some summarize the entire process from birth to being completely sinless as a regeneration process, and hence the confusion when the same term is used to describe two separate parts of the process.

Nevertheless, if you agree that an act of God has to occur first, so as to spiritually awaken and empower a person to believe, then that puts you outside of the camp of the Pelagian. The options now are Arminian or Calvinist. The Arminian will see salvation as now an available option laid before us, to which our efforts will either work alongside of God to accomplish the task, or will reject God's efforts and perish. The Calvinist will see salvation as having already begun in those who are awakened, and as a work that God will accomplish by His own hand, bringing that implanted seed of faith to fruition, not allowing any to perish.

Blessings!

 

We agree I think, you just don't know it yet. Let be convince you.

Your statement above that I made bold I assume you mean regeneration as in a new world (age) and if so would the following not be the age you are speaking of? Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world,(age) and the resurrection from the dead,

If so is it not resurrection/regeneration that makes it a new world (age)?

I know what you mean about last night I'm central time and I went to bed about the time you made that post.

 

Would this not mean that without the new life the washing would be null and void? Does the following verse not say the same thing?

1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

You are correct. He is not telling him that he Nicky has to do something, He is telling him you have to be resurrected from the dead and or be changed to something spiritual in order to see, enter or inherit the kingdom of God. What I am trying to show is when regeneration is used in Matthew it is in this context. Where it is used in Titus 3 it is in reference to Jesus not us. Washing of regeneration is saying the same thing as Romans 5:10 says.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,(that is the washing in his blood) much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.(That is his resurrected/regenerated life)

Ephesians 2:8 says the same thing. For by grace are ye saved through faith.
You just have to understand that it is the faith of Jesus Christ that saves you. Paul says this many, many times in his letters.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

I just love simple things!! I , like Bill OReilly, am a simple man too.