Does the Effectual Calling not work on the RICH?

1. How much of the Bible contains what Paul thinks? Is this something the Holy Ghost, speaking through Paul, is not sure about?

2. God has chosen to use various means to bring his elect to Christ. In this case, envy brought some Jews to repentance and faith. But tell me, how did that plan pan out? How many Jews have been brought to faith through envy? Not many. So does that mean that God's plan failed?

 

As you stated before, rich people were considered to have been favored by God (and saved). That was the attitude of the disciples.

When the disciples say "who then can be saved", they are expressing a belief that if the rich are not saved, then no one can be saved.

Jesus uses the first point about the rich man to express the larger truth that with all men (rich, poor, slave, free etc...), salvation is impossible without God.

So, the point isn't that it is "harder" for God to save the rich, but that it is impossible for men to be saved without God intervening in their lives.

Now, let me ask you something. You have stated that God's intervention is necessary for salvation. Does God use more influence on some than on others? Or does God use the exact amount of influence on each person?

peace to youraying:

 

Yes. But you are the one who used the word "think". But it's not related to the issue at hand, so let's drop that argument. I don't "think" you really meant to say "think". Did you?

Well, I wanted to avoid this topic but you push me to it. Some precision is required in which I may not represent the majority opinion, but I see like this: The means of envy the the way that God brings some to knowledgable conversion after He has regenerated them and changed their wills. So in bringing the Jews to salvation God necessarily uses means, in this case, envy. Means are only effective, or effectual, in the regenerate.

Some will not cut exacty that way, but that's the way I see it.

I could look up references for you, but just read the book of Acts and see for yourself how the Jews overwhelmingly rejected the Gospel, and any Church history will lack a record of any numerically significant Jewish conversion.

There's no argument here as to whether God used envy or not to bring at least some Jews to faith, and it did serve its purpose, and if indeed a future national conversion is in the offing, it may yet again serve its purpose. This deep in the conversation, I've lost track of what the point is other than you seem to be convinced that God using the means of envy somehow proves your point.

 

That's funny, I found the Calvinistic order of salvation refreshingly clarifying when I first came across it. Nothing confusing. No "gymnastics". It's simple. Regeneration, then conversion. I didn't want to bring it up because I can see the thread becoming immediately derailed on that issue. It's already been hashed out recently.

Regeneration brings about the change of disposition, making the "envy" effectual in bring about conversion. The cause and means work together in that fasion to bring about the determined effects and ends. I don't know how simpler it can be.

 

Well, I wasn't around back then, but I would bet that when Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit such as speaking in tongues (the real thing), healing and miracles, that many of the Jews were indeed envious of them.

And since that time as Christianity generally spread north and west, those Christian nations became more powerful and influencial in the world than Israel and the Jews. To this day the Jews depend upon us a great deal which would be very humbling to this people who believe themselves elect.

 

Derailing the topic, but interesting. Maybe start a new thread? Anyway, when you say "the Jews depend upon us a great deal", I bet the Jews would vehemently disagree. In fact, I bet they would deny having "envy" toward anyone including American Christians.

 

Hang in there Skandelon, you are backing them into a corner; tho' they'll never admit it!:smilewinkgrin:

 

There are quite a few reasons for the Jews to envy Christians

What the Jews had or what the Jews had been promised

What the Church (made up of mostly Gentiles) now enjoys

SALVATION

"Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22)

"Through their (Israel’s) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:11)
"Be it know unto you (Israel), that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it" (Acts 28:28; cf. 13:46).

BLESSING

"I will bless thee and make thy name great" (Genesis 12:2)
"I (the LORD) will bless them" (Num. 6:27)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3; cf. Gal. 3:14)

A SPECIAL PEOPLE

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD God; the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people who are upon the face of the earth" (Deut. 7:6)

"Who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto Himself a peculiar people (a special people of His own), zealous of good works" (Titus 2:14 and cf. 1Pet.2:9).

A CHOSEN PEOPLE

"The LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself. The LORD did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people" (Deut. 7:6-7)

But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13)
"He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4)

REDEEMED

"And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, Israel, whom God went to redeem to be His own people" (1 Chron. 17:21)

"In whom (Christ) we have redemption through His blood" (Eph. 1:7)
"For ye are bought with a price" (1 Cor. 6:20)

REST

"To whom he said, This is the rest by which ye may cause the weary to rest, and this is the refreshing; yet they would not hear" (Isaiah 28:12; cf. 30:15)

"Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest . . . and ye shall find rest unto your souls" (Matthew 11:28-29)

THE KINGDOM

"Behold the days come saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper… in His days Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely" (Jeremiah 23:5-6; cf. Lk.1:32-33)

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Colossians 1:13).
"For the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and joy and peace in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17).

NEARNESS OF GOD

"For what nation is there so great, who hath God as nigh (near) unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon Him for? (Deut. 4:7)

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who were once far off are made nigh (near) by the blood of Christ"
(Eph. 2:13)

POSSESSING GOD'S HOLY WORD

"And what nation is there so great, who hath statutes and ordinances as righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" (Deut.4:8)

"For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me . . . I have given them thy Word" (John 17:8,14)

THE BLESSING OF FORGIVENESS

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered" (Psalm 32:1)
"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:31,34)

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins (Eph. 1:70)
"Having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col. 2:13; cf. Rom. 4:6-9).
"And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" (Hebrews 10:17).

THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes"
(Ezekiel 36:26-27)
"And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land" (Ezekiel 37:14; compare Isaiah 32:15; 44:3)

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you?" (1 Cor. 6:19)
"Ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you" (Romans 8:9)

ACCESS TO THE HOLY OF HOLIES

"But into the second (the most holy place) went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood"
(Heb. 9:7)

"Having boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus... let us be drawing near" (Heb.10:19-22; 4:16)

CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM

"I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me... They answered, and said unto Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham" (John 8:37,39; cf. Matt. 3:9)

"They who are of faith are the sons of Abraham...and if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed"(Galatians 3:7,9,29)
"That he (Abraham) might be the father of all them that believe"(Rom. 4:11)