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Does updating archaic language make a Bible counterfeit?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Jul 23, 2009.

  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Active Member
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    In another thread,
    The 1611 KJV was officially a revision of the 1568 Bishops' Bible according to the first rule given the translators. According to a consistent application of your own statement, do you claim that the KJV translators produced a "counterfeit" since they update a great deal of archaic language in the Bishops' Bible?

    Here are some examples from the books of Judges and Ruth where the KJV translators updated archaic language in the Bishops' Bible or make its language simpler.

    Jud. 1:28 waxed mighty (Bishops) was strong (KJV)
    Jud. 2:9 in the coasts (Bishops) in the border (KJV)
    Jud. 2:14 waxed hot (Bishops) was hot (KJV)
    Jud. 3:4 to wit whether (Bishops) to know whether (KJV)
    Jud. 3:15 a man lame of his right hand (Bishops) a man lefthanded (KJV)
    Jud. 3:23 gat him out (Bishops) went forth (KJV)
    Jud. 4:21 he slumbered sore (Bishops) he was fast asleep (KJV)
    Jud. 5:17 tarried in his decayed places (Bishops) abode in his breaches (KJV)
    Jud. 6:8 I fet you from Egypt (Bishops) I brought you up from Egypt (KJV)
    Jud. 6:9 And I rid you (Bishops) And I delivered you (KJV)
    Jud. 6:26 in a convenient place (Bishops) in the ordered place (KJV)
    Jud. 7:13 and me thought that a cake (Bishops) and, lo, a cake (KJV)
    Jud. 8:11 host did cast no perils (Bishops) host was secure (KJV)
    Jud. 8:13 afore the sun was up (Bishops) before the sun was up (KJV)
    Jud. 8:15 cast me in the teeth (Bishops) did upbraid me (KJV)
    Jud. 8:35 otherwise called (Bishops) namely (KJV)
    Jud. 9:17 rid you out (Bishops) delivered you (KJV)
    Jud. 9:20 But if ye have not dealt truly (Bishops) But if not (KJV)
    Jud. 9:26 gat them to Shechem (Bishops) went over to Shechem (KJV)
    Jud. 9:29 Make thine host greater (Bishops) Increase thine army (KJV)

    Jud. 9:37 folk (Bishops) people (KJV)
    Jud. 9:48 folk (Bishops) people (KJV)
    Jud. 9:48 speed your selves (Bishops) make haste (KJV)
    Jud. 9:53 his brain pan (Bishops) his skull (KJV)
    Jud. 9:54 man that bare his harness (Bishops) man his armourbearer (KJV)
    Jud. 10:6 wrought wickedness (Bishops) did evil (KJV)
    Jud. 10:11 Did not I rid you (Bishops) Did not I deliver you (KJV)
    Jud. 11:21 folk (Bishops) people (KJV)
    Jud. 11:26 in all that space (Bishops) within that time (KJV)
    Jud. 11:31 against me (Bishops) to meet me (KJV)
    Jud. 11:38 maidenhead (Bishops) virginity (KJV)
    Jud. 12:4 runagates (Bishops) fugitives (KJV)
    Jud. 13:16 Manoah wist not (Bishops) Manoah knew not (KJV)
    Jud. 14:4 father and mother wist not (Bishops) father and his mother knew not (KJV)
    Jud. 14:8 And within a short space after (Bishops) And after a time (KJV)
    Jud. 14:17 And Samson’s wife wept (Bishops) And she wept (KJV)
    Jud. 14:17 her folk (Bishops) her people (KJV)
    Jud. 15:11 Wottest thou not (Bishops) Knowest thou not (KJV)
    Jud. 16:5 silverlings (Bishops) pieces of silver (KJV)
    Jud. 16:17 I shall wax weak (Bishops) I shall become weak (KJV)
    Jud. 17:2 silverlings (Bishops) shekels of silver (KJV)
    Jud. 17:8 find a convenient place (Bishops) find a place (KJV)
    Jud. 18:10 a people that casteth no perils (Bishops) a people secure (KJV)
    Jud. 19:9 toward even (Bishops) toward evening (KJV)
    Jud. 19:11 sore spent (Bishops) far spent (KJV)
    Jud. 19:15 turned thitherward (Bishops) turned aside thither (KJV)
    Jud. 19:20 the street all night (Bishops) the street (KJV)
    Jud. 19:30 take advisement (Bishops) take advice (KJV)
    Jud. 20:6 abhomination and villany (Bishops) lewdness and folly (KJV)
    Jud. 20:10 abhomination (Bishops) folly (KJV)
    Jud. 20:22 plucked up their hearts (Bishops) encouraged themselves (KJV)
    Jud. 20:26 before the Lord (Bishops) before the LORD (KJV)
    Jud. 20:34 they wist not (Bishops) they knew not (KJV)
    Jud. 20:45 to the wilderness ward (Bishops) toward the wilderness (KJV)
    Jud. 21:4 people rose up betime (Bishops) people rose early (KJV)
    Ruth 1:1 there fell a dearth (Bishops) there was a famine (KJV)
    Ruth 1:19 Is not this Naomi (Bishops) Is this Naomi (KJV)
    Ruth 2:12 The Lord quite thy work (Bishops) The LORD recompense thy work (KJV)
    Ruth 2:17 threshed (Bishops) beat out (KJV)
    Ruth 2:20 of our affinity (Bishops) one of our next kinsmen (KJV)
    Ruth 2:22 come not against thee (Bishops) meet thee not (KJV)
    Ruth 3:15 she gat her (Bishops) she went (KJV)
    Ruth 4:22 Isai (Bishops) Jesse (KJV)

    Why do you think that archaic language that present readers may not understand should be kept?
  2. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

    Jan 9, 2006
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    But -

    but -

    but -

    but --

    ya' gotta' understand how this works!

    The same 'rules' and standards that apply to all other versions, don't apply to the KJV, when it comes to the KJV, just 'cause it is the KJV ONLY.

    At least after 1769, that is. :rolleyes:

    #2 EdSutton, Jul 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2009
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Oct 24, 2001
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    Does updating archaic language make a Bible counterfeit?

    If updating archaic languaged makes a translation counterfeit, then every translation other than ones writtein in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek are counterfeit, including the oft idolized KJV. That is a matter of objective fact, and there there is no other conclusion one can come to.
  4. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Active Member

    Apr 13, 2006
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    There you guys go again... bringing logic and facts to an emotional argument. Shame! Shame!

    :tongue3: :laugh:
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Active Member
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    Here are more examples where the KJV translators revised, made simpler, or updated renderings in the 1568 Bishops' Bible of which the KJV was a revision.

    Prov. 1:8 doctrine (Bishops) instruction (KJV)
    Prov. 1:12 quick (Bishops) alive (KJV)
    Prov. 2:7 health (Bishops) sound wisdom (KJV)
    Prov. 2:18 paths unto hell (Bishops) paths unto the dead (KJV)
    Prov. 2:20 of such as be virtuous (Bishops) of good men (KJV)
    Prov. 3:10 plenteousness (Bishops) plenty (KJV)
    Prov. 3:19 stablished (Bishops) established (KJV)
    Prov. 4:13 doctrine (Bishops) instruction (KJV)
    Prov. 5:1 prudence (Bishops) understanding (KJV)
    Prov. 5:6 Perchance (Bishops) Lest (KJV)
    Prov. 5:12 nurture (Bishops) instruction (KJV)
    Prov. 6:11 like a weaponed man (Bishops) as an armed man (KJV)
    Prov. 6:23 lantern (Bishops) lamp (KJV)
    Prov. 7:7 void of wit (Bishops) void of understanding (KJV)
    Prov. 8:5 O ye ignorant (Bishops) O ye simple (KJV)
    Prov. 8:10 doctrine (Bishops) instruction (KJV)
    Prov. 8:13 I utterly abhore (Bishops) do I hate (KJV)
    Prov. 8:22 aforetime (Bishops) of old (KJV)
    Prov. 8:23 I have been ordained (Bishops) I was set up (KJV)
    Prov. 9:16 is ignorant sayeth she (Bishops) is simple (KJV)
    Prov. 9:17 privily eaten (Bishops) eaten in secret (KJV)
    Prov. 11:9 The dissembler (Bishops) An hypocrite (KJV)
    Prov. 11:13 A dissembling person (Bishops) A talebearer (KJV)
    Prov. 11:14 there is wealth (Bishops) there is safety (KJV)
    Prov. 12:4 A huswifely woman (Bishops) A virtuous woman (KJV)
    Prov. 12:6 talking (Bishops) words (KJV)
    Prov. 12:7 God overturned the estate of the wicked (Bishops)
    The wicked are overthrown (KJV)
    Prov. 12:19 dissembling (Bishops) lying (KJV)
    Prov. 13:4 shall have plenty (Bishops) shall be made fat (KJV)
    Prov. 14:28 confusion of the prince (Bishops) destruction of the prince (KJV)
    Prov. 15:4 frowardness (Bishops) perverseness (KJV)
    Prov. 15:28 studieth his answer afore (Bishops) studieth to answer (KJV)
    Prov. 15:33 right science (Bishops) instruction (KJV)

    Prov. 16:31 crown of worship (Bishops) crown of glory (KJV)
    Prov. 17:9 procureth love (Bishops) seeketh love (KJV)
    Prov. 17:22 make a lusty age (Bishops) doeth good like a medicine (KJV)
    Prov. 18:1 will sequester himself (Bishops) having separated himself (KJV)
    Prov. 18:8 slanderer (Bishops) talebearer (KJV)
    Prov. 18:10 is in safegarde (Bishops) is safe (KJV)
    Prov. 20:11 known by his conversation (Bishops) known by his doings (KJV)
    Prov. 20:19 bewrayeth secret counsel (Bishops) revealed secrets (KJV)
    Prov. 22:28 fore elders (Bishops) fathers (KJV)
    Prov. 23:4 Take not over great travail to be rich (Bishops) Labour not to be rich (KJV)
    Prov. 23:8 shalt thou parbreak (Bishops) shalt thou vomit up (KJV)
    Prov. 26:1 unseemly (Bishops) not seemly (KJV)
    Prov. 28:17 be a runagate unto his grave (Bishops) shall flee to the pit (KJV)
    Prov. 28:17 succour him (Bishops) stay him (KJV)
    Prov. 30:9 Lest peradventure I being full (Bishops) Lest I be full (KJV)
    Prov. 30:25 emmets (Bishops) ants (KJV)
    Eccl. 3:15 hath been afore time (Bishops) hath already been (KJV)
    Eccl. 9:4 a quick dog (Bishops) a living dog (KJV)
    Eccl. 9:13 me thought it was a great thing (Bishops) it seemed great unto me (KJV)
    Eccl. 9:18 wisdom is better than harness (Bishops) wisdom is better than weapons of war (KJV)
    Eccl. 10:5 namely the ignorance (Bishops) as an error (KJV)
    Eccl. 11:1 Lay thy bread upon wet faces (Bishops) Cast thy bread upon the waters (KJV)
    Eccl. 12:1 maker the sooner in thy youth (Bishops) Creator in the days of thy youth (KJV)
    Eccl. 12:1 ever the days of adversity come (Bishops) while the evil days come not (KJV)
    S. of S. 2:8 Me think I hear the voice of my beloved (Bishops) The voice of my beloved (KJV)
    S. of S. 4:9 bewitched my heart (Bishops) ravished my heart (KJV)
    S. of S. 7:2 which is never without drink (Bishops) which wanteth not liquor (KJV)
    S. of S. 7:4 port (Bishops) gate (KJV)
    S. of S. 7:12 be shot out (Bishops) bud forth (KJV)
    S. of S. 8:6 as the hell (Bishops) as the grave (KJV)
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Active Member
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    Actually, KJV-only advocates in effect accept some changes or some updated spelling that was introduced into KJV editions after 1885. The Oxford edition of the KJV in the Scofield Reference Bible has changes made after 1885. Present Cambridge editions of the KJV have changes made after 1900.
  7. BrotherRich

    BrotherRich New Member

    Jul 11, 2009
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    Updating obsolete words does not produce counterfeit, it produces vernacular. The goal is for the common folks (like me) to understand the translation, not for the interpreter to put his spin on what the original says. This is the problem with some non- gender and paraphrased translations of the last 40 years.
  8. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

    Jun 29, 2003
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    But you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater, either. Many, if not most, modern translations are honest, godly attempts to bring God's word forth in a modern language translation.
  9. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Active Member
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    That same problem was claimed concerning the KJV. Some Baptists and other believers in the 1600's and later claimed that a prelate or some prelates "put their spin on what the original says" in several verses. The "spin" that they complained about was a bias towards Episcopal church government in some verses.

    Henry Jessey, a Baptist Bible scholar and pastor in the 1600's, complained about the KJV for its episcopacy and said that Bishop Bancroft "who was supervisor of the present translation, altered it in fourteen places to make it speak the language of prelacy" (Williams, The Common English Version, p. 53). Prelacy refers to a system of church government by prelates such as archbishops and bishops set over more than one local church. Williams also noted that "Bancroft's zeal was that of bigoted attachment to prelacy, fierce even to persecution and cruel proscription" (Common English Version, p. 47). Baptist Hezekiah Harvey asserted that the KJV "was prepared under the influence of prelacy" (Church, p. 42). Concerning several verses in the KJV, Andrew Edgar asserted that “prelacy” obtained “a show of countenance which is scarcely warranted” (Bibles of England, p. 294). Thomas Smyth referred to the KJV translators as “prelatists” and contended that they “took every occasion to make the original speak the language of prelacy” (Presbytery and not Prelacy, p. 257). In 1645 in the sessions of the Westminster Assembly, George Gillespie moved to alter “some places in the [KJV] New Testament that prelatic men make use of” (Mitchell, Minutes, p. 181). Henry Dexter maintained that “its [KJV's] translators acted under Episcopal bias, and is some passages modified earlier and more exact versions in its interest” (Hand-Book, p. 15). Benjamin Hanbury contended that certain renderings in the KJV makes it “sectarian and the symbol of a party” (Historical Memorials, footnote pp. 1-2). Ross Purdy wrote: “There is an Episcopalian bias in the King James Bible” (I Will Have, p. 46). In his 1671 book, Edward Whiston wrote: “Mention might be made of some unhandsome dealing, not in the translators, but in a great prelate of that time, the chief supervisor of the work, who, as the Reverend Doctor Hill declared in a great and honourable Assembly, would have it speak the prelatical language, and to that end altered it in 14 places” (Life and Death of Henry Jessey, p. 49).
  10. TC

    TC Active Member
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    May 7, 2003
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  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Dec 12, 2005
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    You can't remove interpretation from translation. But for you to say that in some modern versions translators put their spin on what the original says is uncalled for. I'd like you to to have a face-to-face with the TNIV and NLTse translators and dare to level the same absurd charge.

    There is no "non-gender" translation. There are gender-accurate versions such as the TNIV and NLTse for instance. You gotta' problem with em'?

    The Message is beyond even paraphrased designation though the translator worked from the original languages.

    The old Living Bible and the Phillips Version were indeed paraphrases (with JBP working from the original language for the NT).

    What other paraphrases are you speaking of?